They're called mongrels. But I do admit I could perhaps have found a better analogy. I do wish you success with the Masons. Congratulations, again, on your first degree.
Any Mason's in the House?
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In the spirit of veritas, brass, I feel compelled to say that if the Church is to be credited with Copernicus, it must also be credited with Cardinal Bellarmine--whose trial of Giordano Bruno (a Copernican astronomer) led to his execution by burning in the Campo de'Fiori. And yet for his part, Bruno considered himself Catholic to the very end--Like all groups, there's good and bad.
Sure, Elbert. But that has nothing to do with Free Masonry or the purported suppression of critical thinking among Catholics.
We also had whore-mongering Popes and pedophile priests and Mother Therese. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for Saints.
But the topic was about Free Masonry, Catholicism and critical thinking. We could write an encyclopedia listing the good Catholics and bad Catholics. I could also do the same for protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. But why? That is is one of the definitions of prejudice - judging an entire group of people based on the examples of a few.
We also had whore-mongering Popes and pedophile priests and Mother Therese. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for Saints.
But the topic was about Free Masonry, Catholicism and critical thinking. We could write an encyclopedia listing the good Catholics and bad Catholics. I could also do the same for protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. But why? That is is one of the definitions of prejudice - judging an entire group of people based on the examples of a few.
I wasn't passing judgment on the Church with that response, I was passing judgment on your specific claim that the Church "gave us Copernicus"--which I take to mean that in some sense it gave us the Copernican model, or allowed it to flourish. A model which developed not because of the Church, but in spite of its best efforts to suppress it. So in one of the four cases you mentioned of thinkers where the church didn't "repudiate rational thinking", it did, in fact, do just that--if not to the man himself, then to his intellectual successors at least. A mite cheeky, eh? :D
So that's really all I was saying. I do apologize for straying off topic. In the spirit of brotherhood, that's the last I'll say on the subject--and I'll offer to Werebear one final congratulations, and thanks for what has been a most engaging thread! I've learned a little bit more about my mother Faith, and a good deal about Freemasonry.
Edit; upon rereading my first paragraph I notice the tone might come off as combative, which I hope you understand is not the case at all!
So that's really all I was saying. I do apologize for straying off topic. In the spirit of brotherhood, that's the last I'll say on the subject--and I'll offer to Werebear one final congratulations, and thanks for what has been a most engaging thread! I've learned a little bit more about my mother Faith, and a good deal about Freemasonry.
Edit; upon rereading my first paragraph I notice the tone might come off as combative, which I hope you understand is not the case at all!
No issues, Elbert. History is complicated. We often are guilty of what I call temporal chauvinism - the tendency to judge the past based on the knowledge, ethics, and moral standards of our time.
I'm also finished commenting on this thread. It is a pipe and tobacco site after all.
I'm also finished commenting on this thread. It is a pipe and tobacco site after all.
Congratulations, Brother Entered Apprentice! I wish you a bright future in the fraternity, and hope you'll take your time to learn and digest its teachings.
In Freemasonry, we are enjoined from entering into argument with the ignorant who ridicule the fraternity, but I won't allow damned lies when they're directed at me.
I don't doubt that the Roman Catholic Church finds Freemasonry incompatible because, simply, everything outside the control of the Roman Catholic Church is deemed incompatible. But Freemasonry is not a religion, parallel to Christianity or otherwise oriented. As I explained to you already, Freemasons do not bring their religious faiths into their lodges. It is a non-sectarian society of men who believe in God. If they believe in Jesus Christ, fine, but if they are of another faith, that's okay too. We don't talk about our religions.
The U.S. Congress has chaplains, prayers, and other religious trimmings, but it isn't a religion. (A bizarre cult, maybe, but not a religion.)
I could go on about the rest of your commentary, but I trust everyone here to know enough about the history of the Roman Catholic Church to be aware it was no friend of the Enlightenment, or republicanism, or the other forces that made our modern world.
What was the Renaissance, then? I was going to end my participation in this thread, but I weary of popularly accepted anti-Catholicism. As has been pointed out, Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice.
One should read that underrated American philosopher, Ralph Waldo Emerson. Everything is in a state of balance. Horrible things done by the Church are balanced out by its theological, cultural, and artistic contributions. What a strange world this would be without the furious change in the arts without the Renaissance! Imagine no Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo, or his David or Pieta, or Botticelli, or the dozen of artists that paved the way for art today!
So sin is balanced out by good works? Listen man, you can't defend the Church, okay, it won't work. Nothing you can say will make its wrongs any less wrong. Its okay, let it go and move on. Plus, last I checked we Christians are lumped together on the same Tree. So it is really OUR wrongs.
Sorry I had to learn to get over the things my ancestors did pretty early on in life. I am blonde haired, blue eyed, and German. So all I'm saying is crap happened, the Church didn't always make the best decisions. We know it, you know it, and we still love you guys!
Sorry I had to learn to get over the things my ancestors did pretty early on in life. I am blonde haired, blue eyed, and German. So all I'm saying is crap happened, the Church didn't always make the best decisions. We know it, you know it, and we still love you guys!
I think I'm being misunderstood. I was referring to Emerson's (a Unitarian pastor) principal of balance perhaps best articulated in his essay "Nature," which simply points out that everything, not just religious matters, finds a balance. Sometimes the price for that balance is terrible. But I wasn't suggesting that sin is balanced by good works (most denominations, I think, don't recognize good works as a way to salvation anyway). As a modest example, when Emerson got a good review for one of his poems or essays, he would wander about with a black cloud over his head, thinking that something unpleasant had to happen to balance out his good reviews. A broken window, or something. That was my only point. Accordingly, the Church did many horrible things, but they also did some great things. Balance.
Congratulation Again Werebear, and thanks to the Catholics in the house for clearing up the errors of my original statement about Catholicism and Freemasonry, which was information I received from my Priest. Either he was in confusion or just did not care to step in into a pile. I don't know and he isn't here to defend himself. I keep my religion and Freemasonry separate. Which is how it's done. Anyway, Werebear I'm glad you made it through the first step, believe me, those catechisms get much easier 8O
What I find interesting about people like brass, is that they tell you what Masonry is and they have no idea what goes on in lodge. Never have I heard a Mason in lodge tell me who or what I should worship. Nor have I ever heard anyone tell me I must worship a "Masonic God" as it does not exist. I went to the coalition of cycles meeting the other day. They said a prayer, ate food, had a ritual to open there meeting this must be a new cult of Motorcycle clubs. The fact that you may in fact believe all the fallacies in your post is your buisness but sadly they are wrong. That is like me saying that communion is a cannabilistic ritual and satanic when anyone who actually understands it knows it is not. Anyway thank you brass for the interesting post. Got a good chuckle.
Wait, I'll save him a minute and give you the stock reply to that:
It's the Grand Masters and the 33º Masons who know about the secret godhead. The rest of us dupes are kept busy with the charity work and lodge business.
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