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NookersTheCat

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Sep 10, 2020
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$15 would get us 0.4oz.
There's a bit of a misconception here though... Here in the US these pound and 5 pound bags we are speaking of are "Pipe Tobacco" not RYO Tobacco... Not in function though.. in Tax Classification.

All 50 states have their own additional state taxes on tobacco that range from non-existent to absurd (A pack of smokes can cost you 2-4x in a place like New York or California than a state like North Carolina or Virginia where it is grown and still carries some political clout as an industry (and interstate smuggling of cigarettes to take advantage of this arbitrage, both for personal savings and larger scale profit, is a very real thing).

However to keep it more simple I will forego state tax and speak only about Federal. 2 of the main "loose tobacco" classifications in the Federal Tax Code are:
Tax Class L, "Pipe Tobacco" @ $2.83/lb
Tax Class J, "RYO Cigarette Tobacco" @ $24.78/lb

Now, from essentially our founding til April 2009, the tax on these products was basically the same.. it was all loose tobacco. In 2009 however the legislators decided to rack up the tax on RYO (Under the guise of public health and saving the children, ofc) from $1.10 to $24.78. This created quite some consternation especially with older and poorer citizens who relied on RYO as one of their few affordable pleasures of life. Brands of RYO that used to be freely available (even online) and cost a pittance were now less available and the price per cigarette worked out to being about the same as just buying machine-mades.. again, a significant drag on those of the lowest socio-economic brackets and kind of a kneecapping to the whole idea of rolling-your-own in the first place. Tax Class L, however, was kept cheaper as pipe tobacco was understood to be a different animal and a dying one at that. (Again, a public health measure that cares not about health outcomes but about industry market share/$ value... of course!! lmao) Also I believe some of the carve-out was due to the significance of pipe tobacco to Native American culture and to not exempt them would be seen as politically unpalatable.

Seeing this change it didn't take long for tobacco companies to come up with a clever workaround, however. If they could take the RYO styled tobaccos, change the brand names, rough the cut up and change just enough of the blend for them to be passable as pipe tobacco (regardless of what people think pipe tobacco and cig tobacco is essentially the same base product just blended and prepared slightly different) then they could sell their bulk "RYO tobacco" wherever they want (including online) and at a price almost the same as it still was 20 years ago. This is currently probably the largest loophole in US tobacco/tax law and so it makes sense to exploit it (whether you enjoy cheap cigs or just the idea of hoarding quality commodities with fair pricing).

However the phenomenon of a .65 oz sachet of Bugler, Drum, Top, etc. RYO tobacco costing $10-15 is also a very real phenomenon here as well. It's just that we also happen to have the option of forgoing these old standbys for $12-20/lb bags of "Gambler", "Buoy", "Cherokee", "OHM", etc.

Personally I find the ones I've tried to be of middling to acceptable quality vs machine made cigs when keeping price in mind but most of the issues I've had are due to the rougher cuts on many in tubes. As far as the leaf itself though it is quality and smoking in a pipe will show that.
Sorry for the novel, but hopefully it helps others (foreign and domestic) to understand the absurdities of our legal system/environment a little better and how to navigate. Cheers!
 
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NookersTheCat

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 10, 2020
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If you make a distinction between pipe and "RYO" tobacco your letting the governments play you.


It's tobacco.
Not necessarily. Some of these blends have extremely rough cuts that make tube stuffing terribly difficult and the burn maddingly slow.. like worse than an American Spirit. Some people enjoy the difference that things like puff-stem add in machine vs RYO cigs... some see them as low quality filler. Some people enjoy the flavor of specific international brands like Drum and are willing to pay.

Don't get it twisted.. You're never gonna see me arguing for taxation/regulation but to say that anyone who chooses to buy RYO taxed tobacco because there's 0 difference from the tax-dodge brands just isn't accurate. And the market supports that... it's still being stocked and sold even though it's multiple times more expensive... there's a reason people are paying that premium and it's not because every single one of them are ignorant idiots who enjoy wasting their money. Nor is it because the bulk brands are trash. Two things can be true at once... many people find that concept hard to grasp today lol.

I've even personally compared Stokkebye No. 84 Turkish Export RYO tobacco to Stokkebye No. 84 Turkish Pipe tobacco (back when it still existed) and found there to be a significant difference (primarily with the cut)... and that's with the "same exact" blend from the same exact brand. Now, if I was someone who went through a carton a week... yeah, I'd probably take the time to find the best "pipe tobacco" I could and settle with that... but as someone who goes through a couple packs per year I don't mind paying $14.75 for one pack of unfiltered Luckies if that's what strikes my fancy.

But that analogy is like saying "Only a complete moron would buy a brand new 2026 Chevy Tahoe Limited.. they have an $8000 gas guzzler tax. You can buy a used 2007 Chevy Tahoe LS for $12k with no gas tax and they're exactly the same thing."
There's some vehicles with wildly different features, some with almost identical features, and a mix in-between just as eclectic and diverse as the millions of people who purchase them and their reasons for doing so.
 

NookersTheCat

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 10, 2020
746
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NEPA
Yeah but is that the exact same thing as Three Castles? Idk cause I've never tried the original but I know the name and company are different. Prince Albert used to be an RYO tobacco and is still available in 14oz tins... are we gonna say 2025 Prince Albert from the Dominican Republic via Altria International is the EXACT same thing as the stuff our (great)grandfathers rolled ciggies with 80-100 years ago?? Idk.. again, I wasn't there but I kindly doubt it lol. And again, does that mean that the 2025 PA is trash? Heck no. Or that there isn't some wildman out there smoking nothing but handrolled unfiltered Prince Albert in this year of our lord 2025? If I had to bet a paycheck, also no... lmao
 

Richmond B. Funkenhouser

Plebeian Supertaster
Dec 6, 2019
5,969
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Dixieland
Not necessarily. Some of these blends have extremely rough cuts that make tube stuffing terribly difficult and the burn maddingly slow.. like worse than an American Spirit. Some people enjoy the difference that things like puff-stem add in machine vs RYO cigs... some see them as low quality filler. Some people enjoy the flavor of specific international brands like Drum and are willing to pay.

Don't get it twisted.. You're never gonna see me arguing for taxation/regulation but to say that anyone who chooses to buy RYO taxed tobacco because there's 0 difference from the tax-dodge brands just isn't accurate. And the market supports that... it's still being stocked and sold even though it's multiple times more expensive... there's a reason people are paying that premium and it's not because every single one of them are ignorant idiots who enjoy wasting their money. Nor is it because the bulk brands are trash. Two things can be true at once... many people find that concept hard to grasp today lol.

I've even personally compared Stokkebye No. 84 Turkish Export RYO tobacco to Stokkebye No. 84 Turkish Pipe tobacco (back when it still existed) and found there to be a significant difference (primarily with the cut)... and that's with the "same exact" blend from the same exact brand. Now, if I was someone who went through a carton a week... yeah, I'd probably take the time to find the best "pipe tobacco" I could and settle with that... but as someone who goes through a couple packs per year I don't mind paying $14.75 for one pack of unfiltered Luckies if that's what strikes my fancy.

But that analogy is like saying "Only a complete moron would buy a brand new 2026 Chevy Tahoe Limited.. they have an $8000 gas guzzler tax. You can buy a used 2007 Chevy Tahoe LS for $12k with no gas tax and they're exactly the same thing."
There's some vehicles with wildly different features, some with almost identical features, and a mix in-between just as eclectic and diverse as the millions of people who purchase them and their reasons for doing so.

I'm saying two things can be true at once...

I'm guilty of calling the bagged stuff "RYO" most of the time... but that's a government term.

There are different cuts among the "RYO" brands. There are examples of really wide cuts all the way to shag cuts.

It's tobacco in a bag... pipe tobacco and cigarette tobacco have always been separated by a blurry line. Don't let them change the truth. Two plus two does equal four.

I'm all for buying what you like, I buy packs of Newports for ten bucks... sometimes twice a day.

The main point I'm trying to make is that these companies aren't doing anything sleezy by calling the stuff pipe tobacco. You can make a damn fine cigarette out of Newminster 403, or smoke a blissful pipe full of D&R Picayune.

Matter of fact the D&R Picayune has more value, to pipe smokers, in a pipe than the Newminster, and the Picayune was a "RYO" blend.
 
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NookersTheCat

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 10, 2020
746
3,687
NEPA
I'm saying two things can be true at once...

I'm guilty of calling the bagged stuff "RYO" most of the time... but that's a government term.

There are different cuts among the "RYO" brands. There are examples of really wide cuts all the way to shag cuts.

It's tobacco in a bag... pipe tobacco and cigarette tobacco have always been separated by a blurry line. Don't let them change the truth. Two plus two does equal four.

I'm all for buying what you like, I buy packs of Newports for ten bucks... sometimes twice a day.

The main point I'm trying to make is that these companies aren't doing anything sleezy by calling the stuff pipe tobacco. You can make a damn fine cigarette out of Newminster 403, or smoke a blissful pipe full of D&R Picayune.

Matter of fact the D&R Picayune has more value, to pipe smokers, in a pipe than the Newminster, and the Picayune was a "RYO" blend.
Totally agree, misunderstood your previous