What defines the "Navy Flake"?

olderthandirt · Oct 15, 2011

I asked this in the thread "Can we talk Navy Flake", What makes a navy flake a navy flake?

Tantamount to a thread jacking (my apologies rafterman) so this thread is born.
Previous searches never got me an answer, today I'm no closer.

Several on-line dictionaries offer the same definition of "tobacco finely cut from a block". Uh-huh.

Found 2 related threads on puff.com, no one gave a definitive answer in either one.
Did a search on tobaccoreviews for blend names that included the words Navy Flake. Seven hits.

The name Navy Cavendish had been mentioned so I included that one as well for a total of 8 "data points".
All are predominately Virginias with one distinguished as totally Black Cav and a second that includes Cavendish.

2 have Perique, only one includes Latakia

4 are flavored with rum, 1 cites aromatic fruits

5 specify aging while under pressure.

7 show as Air cured, 1 as Flue cured
Admittedly small set of data but my take at this point is that Navy Flake may well have had specific meaning in days of yore but for now it seems to indicate little more than a marketing departments choice of blend name.

I don't even want to think about Navy Cut!
What passes for the data:

Bulk No.2035 Dark Navy Flake

McClelland

...light blend of fine Eastern Belt Lemon leaf and cutter grade tobaccos ... transformed through pressure, aging and light stoving into beautiful dark pungent cake.

Air Cured

Black Cavendish

Broken Flake
Luxury Navy Flake

Peter Stokkebye

... mature Old Belt flue-cured Virginia's spiced with Louisiana Perique.

Flue Cured

Virginia

Perique

Flake
Navy Flake

Mac Baren

...flake blended from the finest Burley tobaccos with added ripe Virginias and Cavendish...

Air Cured

Burley

Cavendish

Virginia

Rum

Flake
Navy Flake

Samuel Gawith

...traditional offering of Virginias, pressed with just the right amount of Latakia and flavoured with Rum...

Air Cured

Virginia

Latakia

Rum

Flake
Navy Flake

David P. Ehrlich Company

...Navy blend in rectangular, easily-rubbed-out flakes.

Air Cured

Burley

Virginia

Flake
Navy Flake

W.O. Larsen

...blend of golden Virginia tobaccos spiced with Louisiana Perique. Pressed in cakes and aged before it's cut into delicate slices... added rum....

Air Cured

Virginia

Perique

Flake
Royal Navy Flake

Holger Danske

...Virginia tobaccos matured under high pressure with discreet flavor of aromatic fruits...

Air Cured

Virginia

Flake
Navy Cavendish

McClelland

...traditional Navy Cavendish, pressed in cake and aged naturally with Dark Jamaican Rum ...

Air Cured

Virginia

Rum

Flake

olderthandirt · Oct 15, 2011

So out of the 8 flakes cited that would make 6 air cured and 2 flue.
Any thoughts on what constitutes a "Navy Flake"?

pstlpkr · Oct 15, 2011

Here's my understanding:

A Navy Flake would be a blend of tobaccos that are pressed under the Perique method.

Also, flavored with rum.

One must remember that in the days of tall ships the tobacco curing methods may not have been as sophisticated nor the tobacco as tasty as they are today.

The blend is not so much the point but rather the method used to create the flake.

These rolls could be cut into coins and broken up to put in one's clay.

A sailor's one luxury.
Sailors of old used to press their tobacco into longish rolls and soaked them with rum for flavoring.

These rolls or Periques would keep for quite some time.

I believe that Seanz came up with this video some time back. A demonstration of the Perique method of pressing tobacco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sqhu11WjC4

olderthandirt · Oct 16, 2011

And both of those observations would seem to support my psuedo-conclusion.

You both give accounts of the historical concept of a Navy Flake but this seems to be at odds with much of what is currently marketed as such. If the rum is left out of the equation then the pressing and subsequent slicing of many of the flakes marketed as Navy aren't any different then those that don't have the Navy designation.
Yes, I currently have too much spare time (-;

pstlpkr · Oct 16, 2011

Older... I still recommend a tin of Mac Baren Plumcake Navy Blend. It is simply nothing short of outstanding... add a pinch of Perique, and Wow!

olderthandirt · Oct 16, 2011

That does sound tasty...

docwatson · Oct 16, 2011

Aye, mate. It's the RUM!!!

Older, your listing of different blends/makers is excellent comparison, thanks for an interesting post.

:clap:

perdurabo · Sep 26, 2015

This is the perique that Aleister Crowley smoked soaked in rum. Not 100% St. James Parish Perique soaked in rum. T

peteguy · Sep 26, 2015

Rum was my understanding.

disinformatique · Sep 26, 2015

If it has rum in it and it's a flake. It's a navy flake.

iamn8 · Sep 26, 2015

Seems the answer is obvious. There is no firm definition. It's a general term given to a certain kind of tobacco... Which isn't necessarily certain

fmgee · Sep 26, 2015

Nate has it. I wondered about Peter Stokkebye Luxury Navy Flake yesterday (see here) as I tasted rum in it but there is no rum in LNF. Turns out I had a happy ghost!

blueeyedogre · Sep 27, 2015

I've always gone by the rule that if while I'm smoking it do I was to tie knots, repair sails, roam the open seas, and attack other water vessels....... Got to be Navy flake. I smoked a lot of McClelland Navy on a fishing trip last year and uncontrollably sank to fellow fishing boats and keel-hauled my buddy for failing to pack enough snacks.

settersbrace · Sep 28, 2015

I fear the designation as to what Navy Flake really is has gotten as muddled as what constitutes real Buffalo Wings. I agree that Rum is the common demoninator to legitimize the "Navy" part of the blend and from there it's up to the blenders hand.

lochinvar · Sep 28, 2015

To be a true Navy Flake, it has to have rum. If a Navy flake doesn't have to have rum in it, why call it Navy flake? It would just remain...a flake.

glpease · Oct 7, 2015

This question also came up in the October crawl thread. Here's my take on the story.

scottgun · Dec 29, 2015

Most people freely admit that the origin of "Navy" is murky and resistant to substantiation. That being the case, I'll throw in my speculation: "Navy" is a fossil of pre 20th-century marketing and advertising and really includes any unusual presentation (cube, flake, rope, etc.) that suggests that the tobacco is in an early, and hence, fresher and more unadulterated stage of processing.
If you spend any time with proud New Yorkers, it is likely they have told you that New York City has the best dining experiences in large part because they get first pick of the food that comes off the boats, and as it moves down the distribution chain the rest of the country gets the rejects. I have no idea if this is even remotely true, but I think the same "fresh off the boat" idea is in play when tobacconists billed their stuff as "Navy" in the olden days. You can almost hear the pitch from the days of sail" "You know the sailors pick up the tobacco across the sea and keep the choices bits for themselves right? Look what I got. They roll these up in the spare sails and I didn't even have time to break it up for smoking yet, so you know it hasn't been cut with inferior leaf." It's the whole "fish bought right off the docks as the boats come in" applied to tobacco.

misterlowercase · Dec 29, 2015

I love these sorts of threads,

many thanks for the resurrection perdurabo

: puffy

:
I believe that in the very strict technical sense, that Lawrence was spot on:

Here's my understanding:

A Navy Flake would be a blend of tobaccos that are pressed under the Perique method.

Also, flavored with rum.

One must remember that in the days of tall ships the tobacco curing methods may not have been as sophisticated nor the tobacco as tasty as they are today.

The blend is not so much the point but rather the method used to create the flake.

These rolls could be cut into coins and broken up to put in one's clay.

A sailor's one luxury.
Sailors of old used to press their tobacco into longish rolls and soaked them with rum for flavoring.

These rolls or Periques would keep for quite some time.

I was lucky enough to find an old prick of naval baccy:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/an-amazing-artifact-a-true-roped-navy-plug
In my mind it would seem that that would be the "original" format, but I'm unsure and haven't dove deep into any serious research, which I am now prompted to do and will report back with any findings, which is highly unlikely because it's just one of those things y'know, hard to really ever pin down definitively.
But,

off the top of my head I conjure up the Cope Brothers and their Escudo, true to the form maybe, just cut for convenience?

In fact,

we can trace back the use of the term in regards to marketing to at least the late 1880's because Cope's was a tremendous entity and was an early advertiser as well as their own wonderful printed materials,

an early advert:

And there are some very old Navy tins within this thread:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/naval-themed-tins-gallery-a-full-hold-thru-the-hatch-image-heavy
Here's another oldie from Cope:

Perhaps the big three whom sorta defined the genre were,

Escudo, Capstan, and Player's NC?
There have been many others, but those 3 stick out in my mind.
Here's a short Capstan thingy:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/willss-capstan-navy-cut-a-short-salty-survey-image-heavy
I haven't compiled anything on Player's as of yet except for a short thingy about Digger,

Player's was massive.

Aye, mate. It's the RUM!!!

I agree with this also,

it has come to define the genre in my eyes.
But it is also important to remember what GLP pointed out in his commentary:

Historically, there are many brands that produced "Navy" tobaccos in various cuts - spun and sliced, caked and sliced, and even ribbon cut - and using various leaf formulations, from burley or virginia based, sometimes spiced with perique or latakia, so it's not clear that any formal definition has ever really existed.
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/october-tobacco-crawl-with-greg-l-pease/page/2#post-852685

These sorts of discussions are always very interesting.

:puffpipe:

misterlowercase · Dec 29, 2015

Almost made a mistake recently,

came across an old Player's Navy Mixture cutter-top,

up for a very reasonable sum,

in fact, still worth it if you're a serious tin collector, although the extreme shipping price bumps up the price a good bit, it's a wonderful example, and not exactly seen everyday.
But,

upon closer inspection, one can denote that the top has already been pierced, perhaps only around 5mm of a cut, on the top right when viewing the next-to-last picture:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262210120068?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2661&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I hope I'm not mis-seeing it!

If it is in fact still totally sealed, it would have been a good find.

LOL
I've bought my share of mummydust, which is why I'm much more cautious now,

and don't jump the gun so superquick in spazztic excitement,

see here:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/find-of-the-day-or-ooops-im-an-idiot
The ebay pix I had linked are gone in that thread,

here is what the Bulwark looked like:

...and even though the tins as artifacts unto themselves are quite lovely, it feels like throwing money out the window when you get some crumbly dead crunchy stuff.

misterlowercase · Dec 30, 2015

Went out looking,

halfheartedly knowing that it'd be slim pickin's...
...although I did find a good descriptive video of a guy with a really big prick:

:

:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbk6w0Rl95A

:

:

And this Maritime Museum has a nice entry as well:

http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?/collections/archive/the_sailors_pleasure
I had no luck with the more generalized Navy terminology as applied to tobacco, so I kicked against the pricks,

looking for an archaic erection.
The neatest thing I found is an example of the term being used circa 1777, from The Chapters by Nauticus

Quite the salty language,

good stuff.

Circa 1801 it showed up (simply as a term being defined) in The British Mariner's Vocabulary;

or Universal Dictionary of Technical Terms and Sea Phrases Used in the Construction, Equipment, Management and Military Operations of a Ship by J.J. Moore.
A guy named Galf defines it thusly:

Prick –-- A pound-weight of tobacco, officially called a prick of tobacco, issued loose to seamen was formed, by the recipient, into a tightly rolled cylinder wrapped in canvas, after a soaking in rum whenever possible, with obvious anatomical similarities that have come ashore. Some claim the term ‘prick’ is a corruption of ‘perique’, a dark Virginian tobacco, but this did not occur until the late 19c, and the unspoilt term was in use in the 17c, so this spurious claim is just a sop to the delicate.
http://www.abandos.com/?page_id=38

So the term must've been common in the sailor lexicon, it was much more difficult trying to find earlier examples of "Navy Cut" though, and I came up empty handed, I'd have to break out the books and trace the timeline on the rise of brand advertising and all that jazz...

What defines the "Navy Flake"?

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Site Sponsors

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Part of the Furniture Now

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Starting to Get Obsessed

Lurker

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer