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New Barling's

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  • Started 3 years ago by doctorbob
  • Latest reply from amorley
  1. doctorbob

    doctorbob

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    Just picked up a Barling's Make saddle stem billiard. Stamped BARLING'S (arched) over MAKE, shape 1372 on the left. MADE IN LONDON over ENGLAND on the right, no other stamping. Bowl and shank are in good shape with mild inner and outer wear at the two o'clock position, stamps are crisp. Stem is original, the cross is so faint as to be almost non-existent, but it is there. Nothing seen on the bottom of the stem, very good stem to shank fitment. Heavy tooth indentations top and bottom.
    $45.00 out the door.

    Putting a bowl of Haddo's Delight through as I write.

    It has been a very good day.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. dmcmtk

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    Great! Pipe dates from the late 1930's. $45......you did very well!

    Dave
    Duke Street Irregular
    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. tobyducote

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    Very nice...great pipe

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. doctorbob

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    Very excited, as it is only my second family era Barling. Smokes very well, no ghost.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Good score! By way of comparison, I was gifted a new production Barling straight bulldog last year. It cost twice as much as yours, and, well, it's a pipe. You did very well with that old-school one.

    A man who serves his country is a patriot. A man who serves his government is an employee. The two are not always the same thing.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. doctorbob

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    I haven't found a good score in months, so I'm pretty happy. I wonder if the seller thought it wasn't a family era pipe due to the 4 digit nomenclature? Either way, this should make the wife happy since I have been coveting a very nice pipe online (that is listed for just to much money), and this is taking the edge off of that desire...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. gogosamgo

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    Very nice score! Congrats!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Congrats on a great catch! From the description of the stampings it probably dates from the late 1930's thru late 1940's. Take a look at the underside of the stem with a strong light and a loupe or magnifier. See if you can see any remnants of "REG'd" or numbers stamped on the underside near the join to the shank. That would place the period of manufacture between 1936 and 1950.

    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

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    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. georged

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    http://www.pipephil.eu/logos/en/logo-barling.html

    Dogs live such short lives... and spend most it waiting for us to come home
    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. doctorbob

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    I have a YOW TVF with a reg'd number on the bottom of the stem to compare it to, I don't see any evidence of a stamp on the bottom of the stem on the new pipe. Additionally, the barling's make stamp on the shank is slightly smaller on the just purchased pipe with the arched barling's not coming down as far over the sides of the MAKE stamp (if that makes sense).

    The grain is much better, a mix of straight and flame all the way around the circumference of the bowl, than the cross graining on my YOW pipe.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. dmcmtk

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    Additionally, the barling's make stamp on the shank is slightly smaller on the just purchased pipe with the arched barling's not coming down as far over the sides of the MAKE stamp (if that makes sense).

    This is part of what helps date the pipe, in addition to MADE IN LONDON ENGLAND vs MADE IN ENGLAND, also the lack of a size mark, though from what I was looking at earlier 1372 is EL in size. This is anecdotal, but I've also noticed very nice grain on pre-war English pipes, not only Barling's but quite a few Sasieni "seconds". If you haven't read it, see here for some Barling's talk,

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/help-dating-pre-trans-barling#post-484716

    and of course,

    http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/show-off-your-barlings-here

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Dave,

    Thanks for providing the link to that Barling discussion from 2 years ago. Since then I've had the opportunity to look at some very interesting and informative early Barlings. I can state that Barling began using their 4 digit numbers as early as the 1920's and probably earlier. While Barling rarely stamped model numbers on their early pipes, several have turned up with hallmarks from the early to mid 1920's. I've also been able to correlate a couple of Barlings with model stamps to corresponding pipes in the circa 1918 Barling catalog, so the numbering system was a constant until it was all revised in 1962. All these old Barlings with model numbers and hallmarks feature the old orific bits that Barling used up to the late 1920's. And a couple of hallmarked pieces have turned up with size stamps that date as early as 1925. I'm collecting photos of these very rare pipes.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. doctorbob

    doctorbob

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    Thank you all for this great information. I an going to assume from the small BARLING'S MAKE stamp, MADE IN LONDON ENGLAND stamp and lack of sizing that this most likely a late thirties-early forties pipe (knowing nothing is certain without a hallmark).

    It would figure that I would find this great little pipe about two months after I caved and purchased my first family era barling from Nathan Mattia!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. ssjones

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    Any chance of seeing a picture of the pipe?

    Al

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. doctorbob

    doctorbob

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    Good chance, need the overcast sky to clear for better lighting. My camera skills are abysmal.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. doctorbob

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    Working on the stem with 6000 grit sanding sticks revealed that there IS a stamp on the back, Reg'd over 42/ (rest written off). This will help tighten it's date of manufacture to after 1942, if I understand correctly?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. doctorbob

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    So, of course, the pictures aren't the greatest...


    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. ssjones

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    Wow, that is in terrific shape and only needs a minor clean-up.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. neverbend

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    @DoctorBob, great find!

    @Sabledbrush52 said...

    so the numbering system was a constant until it was all revised in 1962

    Morning Jesse,

    If the pic shows, it's a 1372 (R), no size, pencil shank, small bowl billiard, clearly not the same shape as DoctorBob's. Saw the same as mine, #1372, better condition, on eBay a few months back.

    I remember other instances of same #, different shape (apples comes to mind) but I don't remember the specifics.

    How common do you find that this happened?

    Barling 1372 R

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. aristokles

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    That one must be the "steal" of the month. Very nice.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. doctorbob

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    Neverbend, I would describe my pipe as a pencil shanked, small billiard too. I think the different stem styles make them look further apart in shape than they may actually be. I'll try to get some measurements for apples to apples comparison.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. doctorbob

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    The stummel is 3" even in length, the shank is 1/2" in diameter, and slightly more than 1-3/4" tall.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Morning Jesse,

    If the pic shows, it's a 1372 (R), no size, pencil shank, small bowl billiard, clearly not the same shape as DoctorBob's. Saw the same as mine, #1372, better condition, on eBay a few months back.

    I remember other instances of same #, different shape (apples comes to mind) but I don't remember the specifics.

    How common do you find that this happened?

    Hi Pete,

    Not common at all. The 1372 was a Billiard Chubby with a saddle bit. I've checked out my 150th Anniversary Catalog, where it appears with the new model number of 4219. I went through the Diversity Machine Works letter to US Barling dealers from September 1962, wherein all of the available Barling models are listed with the old Barling numbers, the Nichols numbers and the New Barling numbers in columns side by side, and find no mention of a 1372 R. So I have no explanation for the pipe that you posted.

    Some pipes from the 1920's had an "R" hand cut into the side, a carvers' mark. This pipe is clearly later than that. There were also some pipes that a collector had stamped with an "R". And some early quaints have either an "R" or "L" hand carved next to the stampings, also carvers' marks.

    I wish that the picture was better. I can barely make out the model stamp. The stem looks like a replacement as it doesn't fit correctly.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. jpmcwjr

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    Good chance, need the overcast sky to clear for better lighting. My camera skills are abysmal.

    Actually overcast skies are great for still lifes or other static photos.... But my real reason for posting is to ask: Are you the Dr. Bob at the WCPS- who hails from VT?

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. neverbend

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    Hi Jesse,

    Sorry for the bad picture, I have problems posting graphics. I'll see if I can post better ones.

    I agree that it's a later pipe, post WW-II. The "R" is large and carved, not stamped, near the bowl and I think it signifies 'replacement', similar to the 'X' on Charatans. May be the case with the older 'R'.

    Stem is original and well made. Pipe was hard used and buffed at the join so the briar is a little diminished. Fits close to correct either side.

    The other 1372 that I saw (on eBay) was beautifully rendered. Like mine but a bit longer with a taper that started at the shoulder and continued all the way to the button. Very elegant.

    Most of the 1372s that I've seen were like DoctorBobs lovely find. On mine, I thought that the seller had mixed up the nomenclature with another pipe but there it was.

    Pete

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. dmcmtk

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    Because the subject came up...a 1962 4219 that sold on ebay over the weekend.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. doctorbob

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    Jpmcwjr- I'm a different guy. Love Vermont, but I'm from the Midwest.

    Bob

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. ssjones

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    Smart grab on that 4219!

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    I'm glad this thread came back around. When it first popped up, I was less than kind about my new-production Barling. That was unfair; I didn't give it enough of a chance to pass judgement on it. I put it back in the rotation after this thread came up, and frankly it has been improving with every smoke, just like any other good quality, brand new pipe should. I believe I made the mistake of judging every aspect of the pipe by its poorly-applied gloss coat. I removed it with 91% IPA, so that problem is solved. I just wanted to clear the air and give credit where credit is due, which I did not do before.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. jpmcwjr

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    Do you have before and after pix by chance?

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    aldecaker

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    Sorry, I do not. I've been meaning to grab my wife's digital camera and figure out how to post pics, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  32. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    I agree that it's a later pipe, post WW-II. The "R" is large and carved, not stamped, near the bowl and I think it signifies 'replacement', similar to the 'X' on Charatans. May be the case with the older 'R'.

    Stem is original and well made. Pipe was hard used and buffed at the join so the briar is a little diminished. Fits close to correct either side.

    The other 1372 that I saw (on eBay) was beautifully rendered. Like mine but a bit longer with a taper that started at the shoulder and continued all the way to the button. Very elegant.

    Most of the 1372s that I've seen were like DoctorBobs lovely find. On mine, I thought that the seller had mixed up the nomenclature with another pipe but there it was.

    There have also been a number of pipes, Barlings, Sasienis and Dunhills, that have shown up on eBay with the same "R" carved into them, which suggests someone's collection has been sold off. I'd buy that one over carving an "R" into a pipe to indicate a replacement stem. That's a bit extreme.

    The other possibility is that someone used the wrong stamp in the factory, though that seems a bit of a stretch. But there's the anomalous shape with that stamp. So, someone screwed up.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  33. neverbend

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    I'd buy that one over carving an "R" into a pipe to indicate a replacement stem

    Hi Jesse,

    Sorry, I wasn't specific.

    "R" = Replacement PIPE, (not stem)

    Only an idiot would etch an ugly "R" onto all of their pipes. OK, there are some idiots out there :).

    Warranty replacement or gift pipes were often (usually) marked. Barling, Charatan, Dunhill and others did this. I wrote more on this topic in "Sell Me A Dunhill" thread.

    I'd imagine that Sasieni had marks. I know that GBD marked gifted pipes, so I'd assume that Comoy did too.

    Either as replacement or gift, the marks (sometimes as direct as "Not For Sale") indicated that there was no further warranty. The gifts were intended to be hanging from the mouth of retailers to promote the brand and not just added to inventory.

    I have a gifted (1982) Il Ceppo marked "For Friends" (in English). Jacopo gifted me a grand Gem series with a silver/gold/silver band that's engraved with my name and "4-5-1983", easily the most elegant way of insuring that it was used by me and not sold. Of course I still have it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  34. neverbend

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    @DoctorBob,

    Our pipes are significantly different. Your bowl is thicker and is a saddle stem.

    Mine is thinner, smaller bowl with a long taper stem.

    @Dmcmtk,

    Did you purchase the Barling #4219 or just see it? Do you know what it went for?

    Barling's Make arched pipes are immediate post-Family Era and about the same quality as their predecessors, handmade bowl and stem. The plumping of the bowl was impossible with machines of that time. If you bought it, congrats and enjoy.

    @Aldercaker,

    Glad to hear how well your Barling smokes!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  35. georged

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    Warranty replacement or gift pipes were often (usually) marked. Barling, Charatan, Dunhill and others did this. I wrote more on this topic in "Sell Me A Dunhill" thread.

    For those interested, this is Dunhill's "Gift" stamping. Commonly known among collectors as a "C pipe". (It stands for "complimentary" according to the Music City Marketing people who gave it to me. Makes sense)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  36. sablebrush52

    sablebrush52

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    Warranty replacement or gift pipes were often (usually) marked. Barling, Charatan, Dunhill and others did this. I wrote more on this topic in "Sell Me A Dunhill" thread.

    Possibly. But did you not describe the "R" as hand etched, rather than stamped? I've seen the markings on Charatans, who also used a stamp that looked like an open flower to obliterate the original stamping. I have one such, an "After Hours", where the original Charatan Belvedere stamp was obliterated. I've also seen that on other Charatans. Wouldn't Barling have used a stamp rather than carving an "R"? And if this was a regular practice, wouldn't these show up? I haven't seen such a stamp on any Barlings so far. And the hand cut "R" appears on quaints only, except for those "R"'s which were cut into the shanks of a variety of pipes by a collector with impeccable taste, deep pockets, and no evident concern for resale. As for gift pipes, such as the Benjamins, mine bear no odd stamps.

    So while it's possible that it means replacement, It's also possible that it doesn't. And since the model stamp appears to be incorrect, the whole thing could be a one time bollocks. It certainly is one of those interesting mysteries.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  37. neverbend

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    For those interested, this is Dunhill's "Gift" stamping. Commonly known among collectors as a "C pipe". (It stands for "complimentary" according to the Music City Marketing people who gave it to me. Makes sense)

    Thanks for the post George.

    At the Dunhill World Pipe Conferences in 1980 and 1982, the attendees were given pipes with similar markings. I don't remember the "C" but it might have been there.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  38. ssjones

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    At the Dunhill World Pipe Conferences in 1980 and 1982, the attendees were given pipes with similar markings. I don't remember the "C" but it might have been there.

    I didn't know that Dunhill had "World Pipe Conferences", amazing.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  39. neverbend

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    Hi Jesse,

    Collectors rely on nomenclature and want to believe that the markings were carefully attended to. With all good intentions that wasn't always the case. Dunhill was the most consistent (in my experience) but I know from my companies that screw-ups happened. Markings were omitted, incorrect grades used, stamps applied at angles, etc. and shape numbers could add to the problems. Manufacturers just weren’t as meticulous as collectors expect that they were.

    As I mentioned, I saw another #1372, same shape as my little, taper, pencil shank, on eBay. It was better executed and in superior condition and no "R". I've seen the same "R" as mine on a few Barlings in the early 1980s. (I believe) Phil Bennett told me that it meant "replacement', and that rang true because they (mine included) were small and ordinary pipes, typical of what companies used for this purpose. I'll try to post better pictures. The "R" isn't pretty, nor is it meant to be. Mine looks etched but might be a stamp. Your description of Charatan replacement marks is consistent with making the pipe unsaleable.

    I took a Bruyere to the offices of Dunhill USA (NYC), for exchange. I was shown a tray of small, sad looking Shells but I insisted on a Bruyere. Then they wanted to mark it as a replacement (office staff did the marking) but it didn't happen and I don't know what mark they would have used. Pipes sent to London probably had a different stamp.

    Stamps were used until no longer functional and then replaced. Most of the time you tried to duplicate the stamp but it might be with another tool shop who used different fonts (for example). Too much literal meaning is infused with nomenclature, it's the best that we have but it can't always be relied upon.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  40. buroak

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    And a couple of hallmarked pieces have turned up with size stamps that date as early as 1925.

    So a Barling with an EXEL stamping might also have an original stem with the "Regd Design" stamp?

    There have also been a number of pipes, Barlings, Sasienis and Dunhills, that have shown up on eBay with the same "R" carved into them, which suggests someone's collection has been sold off.

    I have one of these, a Barling in my case. Colwright sold several non-Barling pipes with the same "R".

    Life contains a particle of risk. - Allardyce T. Meriweather in Little Big Man
    Posted 3 years ago #
  41. sablebrush52

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    Collectors rely on nomenclature and want to believe that the markings were carefully attended to. With all good intentions that wasn't always the case. Dunhill was the most consistent (in my experience) but I know from my companies that screw-ups happened. Markings were omitted, incorrect grades used, stamps applied at angles, etc. and shape numbers could add to the problems. Manufacturers just weren’t as meticulous as collectors expect that they were.

    One of the legendary characteristics with Barling was the inconsistency of their stamping. But why stamp a model number on a different shape, if not a mistake? There have been Barlings where the logo stamp was upside down. Pretty good trick, that one.

    So a Barling with an EXEL stamping might also have an original stem with the "Regd Design" stamp?

    Nope. The "Reg Design" stamp dates the stem to 1935-36. The EXEL size didn't come into existence until 1938 or 39.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  42. buroak

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    Nope. The "Reg Design" stamp dates the stem to 1935-36. The EXEL size didn't come into existence until 1938 or 39.

    I guess I will always have a bit of mystery on my hands. Fortunately for me the pipe smokes like it is completely unaware of its anachronistic nature.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  43. dmcmtk

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    Barling's Make arched pipes are immediate post-Family Era and about the same quality as their predecessors, handmade bowl and stem. The plumping of the bowl was impossible with machines of that time. If you bought it, congrats and enjoy.

    Pete, I would suggest you re-read the pipedia article, it covers this issue in some detail. Any questions can be directed to Jesse!

    The 1962 150th Anniversary and Retailers’ Catalogs

    http://pipedia.org/wiki/Barling

    Posted 3 years ago #
  44. sablebrush52

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    I guess I will always have a bit of mystery on my hands. Fortunately for me the pipe smokes like it is completely unaware of its anachronistic nature.

    The thing about stems being "original" on old pipes is that it's largely taken on faith. There's no way to prove it. Who knows? Maybe your "Reg'd Design" stamp was used in 1938-39. It's assumed that the stamp went out of use after the patent was granted, but Barling was pretty loose about stamping. The EXEL size is a matter of record as Barling's published range of sizes expanded with its 1939 product listing.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  45. neverbend

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    I hope that this image shows. "R" is carved into the pipe, not a stamp.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  46. neverbend

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    @Dmcmtk,

    Barling's Make arched pipes are immediate post-Family Era and about the same quality as their predecessors, handmade bowl and stem.

    immediate post-Family Era, should have been before Barling's Make, not after it (quite a different meaning). Thanks for pointing out the confusion.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  47. neverbend

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    Hi Jesse,

    But why stamp a model number on a different shape, if not a mistake?

    I’ll refer to Doctor Bob’s pipe as #1372A and mine #1372B.

    There are enough #1372A so that it’s the expected shape and there are at least two #1372B. The ‘why’ can’t be known. A mistake, that was repeated (at least once) makes sense but there may have been another explanation. @DoctorBob, can you post a close-up of the shape number and Barling stamp on your pipe?

    One of the legendary characteristics with Barling was the inconsistency of their stamping...There have been Barlings where the logo stamp was upside down. Pretty good trick, that one.

    OK, my guys stamped some upside down too but I didn’t want to embarrass them. Barling’s process was streamlined but just on sheer numbers, mistakes would happen. Looking back we see every nomenclature mistake but I suspect that these pipes, in their day, were simply sold.

    The thing about stems being "original" on old pipes is that it's largely taken on faith. There's no way to prove it. Who knows? Maybe your "Reg'd Design" stamp was used in 1938-39. It's assumed that the stamp went out of use after the patent was granted, but Barling was pretty loose about stamping.

    There are ways to identify Barling (and Dunhill) stems because they were handmade rod vulc and have some distinctive work, identifying a factory replacement would be more difficult. For me, a Barling handmade stem (original or replacement) usually suffices.

    Shank shaving is obvious. Rod vulc is more dense but you’d need about the same size stem to feel the difference. Barling stems have different jig patterns, tenon and flat work (on the saddles) that distinguish them from molded stems.

    The EXEL size is a matter of record as Barling's published range of sizes expanded with its 1939 product listing.

    Is it possible that the EXEL nomenclature was used before 1939 or was this date when the change was to be implemented? My experience is that Pipe companies, large or small, implemented changes on a regular basis that were reflected in published materials at a later date (if at all). Their marketing tended to be a trailing indicator. You’ve found examples of stamps used before what had been previously been accepted as the initial date and that makes sense. It’s not the same manufacturing idiom as, say, electronics.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  48. sablebrush52

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    Is it possible that the EXEL nomenclature was used before 1939 or was this date when the change was to be implemented? My experience is that Pipe companies, large or small, implemented changes on a regular basis that were reflected in published materials at a later date (if at all). Their marketing tended to be a trailing indicator.

    The information is taken from the British tobacco trade publication, Tobacco World, courtesy of John Guss. John tracked the product line over a number of years and sent me a copy of the spreadsheet. There are some elements that I can't discuss because some of it is still active research, but I can discuss the sizes issue. Basically, I took the trailing indicator into account, as the larger array of sizes isn't listed in the journal until 1940. My bad on saying it was 1939. So suggesting that it might have been as early as 1938 is being generous. 1940 is when the Barling line is listed as having sizes from SS thru EXEXEL. Before that it is small, medium, and large.

    There are ways to identify Barling (and Dunhill) stems because they were handmade rod vulc and have some distinctive work, identifying a factory replacement would be more difficult. For me, a Barling handmade stem (original or replacement) usually suffices.

    Agreed. As a matter of practice, I discount any claims of a stem being "original". If it's correct, that's good enough for me.

    Shank shaving is obvious. Rod vulc is more dense but you’d need about the same size stem to feel the difference. Barling stems have different jig patterns, tenon and flat work (on the saddles) that distinguish them from molded stems.

    Also agreed. There are style elements to Barling stems, both saddle and taper, that are quite distinctive. It makes spotting a replacement made by an average craftsman pretty easy. GeorgeD or RonnieB, on the other hand, can produce a dead on replication. We're so screwed when these guys quit.

    There are enough #1372A so that it’s the expected shape and there are at least two #1372B. The ‘why’ can’t be known. A mistake, that was repeated (at least once) makes sense but there may have been another explanation. @DoctorBob, can you post a close-up of the shape number and Barling stamp on your pipe?

    I'd be interested to know what it is, since the Diversity Machine Works memo from September 1962, which lists all available Barling models (and there were one hell of a lot of them) doesn't list any variations under this model number.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  49. doctorbob

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    This is as good as I can get right now...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  50. sablebrush52

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    This is as good as I can get right now...

    Good enough for me to tell you that the pipe probably dates from the late 1930's thru mid 1940's.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  51. doctorbob

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    Thanks sablebrush52, I have learned so much from this thread and it's great and knowledgeable contributors.

    This pipe is also stamped Made In London over England, and I did find a faint Reg'd 42/8968 on the bottom of the stem after cleaning, see the pictures half way down the thread.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  52. sablebrush52

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    This pipe is also stamped Made In London over England, and I did find a faint Reg'd 42/8968 on the bottom of the stem after cleaning, see the pictures half way down the thread.

    Yep. That's consistent with the period I suggested, kinda locks it in. Boy, I'm good.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  53. doctorbob

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    Damn right!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  54. buroak

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    The thing about stems being "original" on old pipes is that it's largely taken on faith. There's no way to prove it. Who knows? Maybe your "Reg'd Design" stamp was used in 1938-39. It's assumed that the stamp went out of use after the patent was granted, but Barling was pretty loose about stamping. The EXEL size is a matter of record as Barling's published range of sizes expanded with its 1939 product listing.

    I am not too worried whatever the case is. The fit is excellent, it was shockingly clean on arrival, and I have no plans to sell the pipe. The mismatch just gnaws at me a little because I bought the pipe in a lot from a single rural New England estate, and the condition of the lot tells me the guy was not the type to have stems replaced. I count myself lucky that he seemed not to have smoked the Barling much at all. The Wilke and Comoy's seconds, on the other hand, were rather brutalized.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  55. fnord

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    I love threads like this, especially when they deal with the classic British pipe houses.

    They meander through the swamp of pipe history: stamps, hallmarks, made in England vs. made in London, England, numbered shapes, renumbered shapes, Registration markings: legible or not.

    The esoteric detail is mind numbing for most but I find it wonderful. And I'm double damned grateful to see several guys here who are so expert on the Barling brand. Jesse and Neverbend, thank you for being the go-to guys on Barling at this forum.

    Doctorbob, you got a beautiful burner from one of the great houses. And you stole it - replacement stem notwithstanding. Good on you, man! I hope your great-grandchildren pull knives on each other over that pipe when you pass away.

    Fnord

    It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says - like dumb - I'm smart and I want respect!
    Fredo Corleone
    Posted 3 years ago #
  56. buroak

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    I hope your great-grandchildren pull knives on each other over that pipe when you pass away.

    Or they could just schedule a fishing trip, right?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  57. fnord

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    Nah.

    For a Barling?

    What's come over you, Buroak?

    Fnord

    Posted 3 years ago #
  58. buroak

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    You are right, Fredo, erm...Fnord, what has come over me? Nothing some Hail Mary utterances can't fix.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  59. neverbend

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    Fnord said...

    Jesse and Neverbend, thank you for being the go-to guys on Barling at this forum.

    Jesse's the dating expert, not me. I collected Barlings in the 1980s and forgot more than I remember. I tend to view Barling from a manufacturing perspective.

    @DoctorBob,
    Thanks for the fast response and very clear shot of your Barling's nomenclature. I compared the shape numbers on our pipes and there are some differences. My '1' is shorter and slightly above the level of the '372'. Our '3's are subtly different. Nothing definitive to draw any conclusions from.

    Something that Jesse and I haven't discussed is whether Barling used a fixed stamp that had all the numbers for a shape, single numbers, or a replaceable type stamp. My #1372 appears to have had the '1' added onto the '372'. I've studied (just a bit) numbering in the post-Family era and I believe that they used a combination of stamps.

    @Buroak said...

    The mismatch just gnaws at me a little because I bought the pipe in a lot from a single rural New England estate, and the condition of the lot tells me the guy was not the type to have stems replaced.

    From your description it sounds like the owner (who had the pipe before you) treated the Barling as a special pipe that was less often smoked than his others. That can't insure that it wasn't a repair.

    I too admire Jon Guss' research but I've been in many factories and seen anomalies (stamping or otherwise). I'll present a plausible way that your pipe is authentic, bowl and stem, and that also matches Jon's research, so that you can gnaw on some holiday turkey rather than the origins of your pipe.

    The fact that your pipe has a registration mark virtually insures that the stem was stamped in the Barling factory, and implies an original part. This isn't a stamp that Barling would have allowed out of the factory, even to their own repair shop. Since the date of the stem is before the bowl (by research) that suggests that it was made before the bowl. Can that be?

    Pipe makers invariably save stems and bowls that, for whatever reason, were fashioned without ending up on a finished pipe. For a company that hand-cuts stems it's more crucial because there's already a considerable amount of time invested in them. From time to time they'll dip into these stems (or bowls) to try and use them.

    Your stem (in my scenario) was fitted to a pipe, stamped with the Reg Design and then, removed from that pipe for some reason. Probably quality control, perhaps a bowl with a split or crack in the shank. A couple of years later this stem was a near perfect fit for another bowl and it was used. It's also plausible (with Barling) that they took turned a bowl to mate with the stem. Hand-cut rod vulc stems are nearly as costly to make as the bowl.

    How often did this happen? If there's a lull in production or especially when materials are short, like in WW-II, perhaps when your pipe was actually made. Mark Tinksy made me a beautiful poker last year. He knows my affection for hand-cut rod vulcanite, so he fitted the pipe with an existing (rod vulc) stem to my delight.

    How's your turkey?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  60. sablebrush52

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    Something that Jesse and I haven't discussed is whether Barling used a fixed stamp that had all the numbers for a shape, single numbers, or a replaceable type stamp. My #1372 appears to have had the '1' added onto the '372'. I've studied (just a bit) numbering in the post-Family era and I believe that they used a combination of stamps.

    Yep. There's enough variation in line up to justify that view. And, on some pipes you can see some variation in the depth of the strike.

    Your stem (in my scenario) was fitted to a pipe, stamped with the Reg Design and then, removed from that pipe for some reason. Probably quality control, perhaps a bowl with a split or crack in the shank. A couple of years later this stem was a near perfect fit for another bowl and it was used. It's also plausible (with Barling) that they took turned a bowl to mate with the stem. Hand-cut rod vulc stems are nearly as costly to make as the bowl.

    No reason that that could not have happened. Craftsmen tend to be very thrifty with materials and don't easily throw anything away that could possibly be put to use later on. That hallmarked 1941 Sasieni 8 Dot that I own, with a bowl from the 1920's is another example.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    What a great thread; and I feel like an idiot for letting trivialities like work get in the way of keeping up to date with this forum.

    I do have a few thoughts to share. First, as Jesse knows, I think there's much additional work that can be done on creating a dating rubric for Barling pipes. It would take a collective, disciplined effort and a fair amount of time; and even then would be a work in progress for years. Right now the dialogue is piecemeal.

    Secondly, Jesse, I think you skipped a line in your reading of the shape number on the DMW equivalency chart: 1372 is indeed Large (i.e. EL), but it is a billiard slender, not a billiard chubby. And equally importantly, it's equipped with a "saddle bit with long bite length". This last point suggests a few alternatives:

    a) that doctorbob's pipe has an original stem, while Pete's does not
    b) that the definition of what constituted a 1372 changed over time, and the saddle stem specified at the time of the transition was not standard at some other point in time

    Pete, if you talked about the markings on the stem of your 1372 I missed it; sorry. Does it have the Barling cross? Or a Reg number? Or anything else that cries out "Barling" to you?

    If hypothesis (a) is right, then two further possibilities come to mind to account for the stem on Pete's pipe:

    i) that Pete's stem is indeed a Barling, but a factory replacement (perhaps accounting for the "R" that has been the subject of so much debate?)
    ii) that Pete's stem is a non-Barling replacement done at some later point due to damage or owner preference

    Of the various hypotheses above (and I'm sure there are others too), I tend towards thinking that the first one (i.e. that doctorbob's pipe has the original "correct" stem, while Pete's does not) the more likely, simply because it's supported by the evidence we have in hand. It could be wrong, of course, but I'd look for something concrete that contradicted existing documents. I also give weight to Jesse's statement that his data suggests strong evidence that shape numbers represented consistent shapes (and stems?) over time.

    As for accounting for the taper stem on Pete's pipe, I would dismiss hypothesis (ii) because I know that Pete is highly knowledgeable about Barling stems, and think it probable that he would have already said if he had doubts about the authenticity of the stem on his pipe.

    I guess where this leaves me is the belief that doctorbob's pipes is the "real" Barling 1372, and Pete's either had an authentic Barling replacement stem, or less likely represents an earlier rendition of that shape. Or perhaps it's Pete's scenario, but with his pipe being the one fitted to an unorthodox stem at the factory instead of doctorbob's.

    On another topic that came up in the thread: the table I prepared from my notes shows that the first usage of the new sizing nomenclature in the industry annual price list published by Tobacco World appeared in the 1941 edition. That's consistent with the transition I've found so far in contempory advertisements. But I think Pete's point is a good one, and it's possible that changes in nomenclature preceded changes in advertising or publication in trade price lists. If so, however, I'm with Jesse in the belief that it is unlikely to have been by more than a year or two.

    Finally, I want to clear up a misconception about UK registered design numbers. They do not represent patents, or pending patents. They are meant to protect "decorative elements" as opposed to the details of "how an item worked". This is an important distinction. In the case of Barling's design 754068, it was registered between April and October of 1930.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  62. sablebrush52

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    Hi Jon

    My boo boo. It's 2nd and 3rd digits and I was thinking 3rd and 4th. Dumb... I've got Kaywoodie on the brain. This thought about different shapes being assigned the same model number reminded me of Kaywoodie, who did that.

    doctorbob's piece is late '30's - mid '40's based on the type of Baring's Make" stamp pictured and buttressed by the "Made In London" over "England" stamp. So Pete's is going to be later, if anything. Maybe it was a replacement stem. There are a lot of factory stems floating around. My early Barling fossil, the one with the '30's era "Small" Barling logo, no other stampings of any kind, no "Fossil", no model number, no nada, has a factory Barling stem. But that stem has "Barling Design" stamped on it, making it at least 8-10 years newer than the briar. It matches up perfectly with the shank, but that doesn't mean that the factory necessarily did the replacement. Any repairman with a collection of parts could have found one to fit.

    Jon, your spreadsheet has the line expansion listed as 1940. You lied to me...

    Sorry Buroak, better toss that pipe in the trash...

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    I've been married a bit over 26 years, and very rarely do I get the satisfaction of being demonstrably right. I want to cherish it, and hopefully it will carry me through Hanukkah, Christmas, New Year's Eve, and well into 2016.

    If you look at the first tab of the spreadsheet I emailed you (and Tad) on 6/17/2013, check row 42. It's line (e) of the notes to the table. It says "Starting in 1941 the sizing nomenclature per the price list changed from small/medium/large/extra large, to ss/s-m/l/el".

    I knew there was a reason I saved all my emails.

    Posted 3 years ago #
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    Not that I wouldn't lie to you if it was worth my while, Jesse. If something important was at stake. Like a cold beer on a hot day, or bragging rights on something totally trivial!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  65. dmcmtk

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    So, now I have a question, did shape 1372, which became 4219 in the Anniversary Catalog, become Billiard Curvet 4109 in the '62 Retailers Catalog, or was it (10) a different shape than the earlier (21) shape? Inquiring minds......

    Posted 3 years ago #
  66. sablebrush52

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    If you look at the first tab of the spreadsheet I emailed you (and Tad) on 6/17/2013, check row 42. It's line (e) of the notes to the table. It says "Starting in 1941 the sizing nomenclature per the price list changed from small/medium/large/extra large, to ss/s-m/l/el".

    So it does. And if you look at column I, for 1940, it shows prices for all those new sizes. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

    So, now I have a question, did shape 1372, which became 4219 in the Anniversary Catalog, become Billiard Curvet 4109 in the '62 Retailers Catalog, or was it (10) a different shape than the earlier (21) shape? Inquiring minds......

    The DMV Equivalency chart lists a model 4109 - Billiard Curvet - as well as the dratted 4219 - Billiard Slender, so both were in the line. In the 150th Anniversary Catalog it is represented in its saddle bit flat version 4109. In the retailers catalog it's represented in its tapered version, 4105. The overall bowl shape in both catalogs looks consistent. The 4219 doesn't appear in the Retailers Catalog. Keep in mind that the catalogs didn't show the entire line, just a representative sample of their most popular shapes. Also keep in mind that Barling retired shapes. They weren't selling Captain Warrens in 1962. So, the dratted 4219 may have gone the way of the dodo. Or, maybe not. If a Corporate Era 4219 shows up we'll know the answer to that.

    So, no, they didn't swap model numbers and shapes. Can you imagine the chaos after renumbering the line and publishing those numbers to their dealers if they immediately started reassigning model numbers?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  67. sablebrush52

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    Looking through the DMV Chart, I did find a 4215, which would have been the tapered stem version. Unfortunately, the Old Barling number is partly missing, but could have been 1128. Jon says that he has a better copy of the list than the one that I have, and likes to torture me by promising that he'll find it and send me a copy. First, though, he has to finish an article on the mummified hand sitting on his desk, and there's that other one about the cigar salesman.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  68. dmcmtk

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    So, no, they didn't swap model numbers and shapes. Can you imagine the chaos after renumbering the line and publishing those numbers to their dealers if they immediately started reassigning model numbers?

    Quite.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  69. ssjones

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    Finally, I want to clear up a misconception about UK registered design numbers. They do not represent patents, or pending patents. They are meant to protect "decorative elements" as opposed to the details of "how an item worked". This is an important distinction. In the case of Barling's design 754068, it was registered between April and October of 1930.

    I wasn't aware of the distinction between patent and Red Design numbers, thanks!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  70. doctorbob

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    Is there any info available on the registered 42/8968 stamp? I only have access to internet sources and data is space to say the least.

    Bob

    Posted 3 years ago #

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