Bowl temperature/construction question

hobie1dog · Jun 21, 2010

I think I have the answer to my question, ( and yes, I did a search for it ) but on my Quiet Comrade pipe, the outside of the bowl gets pretty dag gone hot to hold at about the 20 minute mark, is it just because it is a low mass design? I assume that I need to look at getting one of those sweet looking freehand sitters that have a thick bowl section to act as an insulator. Like this one:

pstlpkr · Jun 21, 2010

I have often wondered about that very question.

Obviously a thin walled pipe will heat up much more than one with much thicker walls.

but my thoughts are more to the direction of the grain as the deciding factor.

I think that (just maybe) straight grain or a flame grained pipe may cool off faster than one with a cross grained pattern, for example.

I have both. Judging from my unscientific observations this would seem to be true.

It could also be true that the direction of the grain influences the direction the heat travels. For example while the cross grain has walls as thick as those used for comparison. The cross grain feels warmer for longer. The two pipes I am talking about are my Cavicchi Volcano, (straight grain [up and down]) and my Peterson Standard 307 (cross grained [side to side]). The walls of the Peterson are actually thicker than the Cavicchi, but the Peterson gets much warmer and doesn't seem to cool off as quickly.

igloo · Jun 22, 2010

Now I have to look at the grains on my pipes to test your observations . I have a thin wall Nording that will melt the flesh off of your fingers .While its big brother free hand never heats up . It is plateu briar with straight grain . Blasts seem to smoke cooler , double surface area and all .

admin · Jun 22, 2010

Wow, that's an interesting observation Lawrence. I never thought about that. You just made me realize the pipes I have where you can't see a grain - I have 9 sandblast pipes, and 1 Peterson with a black bowl. I only have about 6 straight grains, and then bunch of other patterns.
I'll have to start paying attention to how hot they get and how fast they cool off.
Of course, the way you smoke and I think the type of tobacco has some influence here too.

chuckw · Jun 22, 2010

If the pipe in question is the one pictured, the problem is with your technique, not the pipe. You are either packing it too tight or smoking it to fast or both.
Regarding straight grain vs birdseye/cross grain, I read an article several years ago that compared the two for generated heat. The testor used a pyrometer and two like sized bowls. The straight grain smoked cooler until the last 1/4 bowl. The difference for the first 3/4 bowl was 100/150 degrees f. The difference in the last 1/4 bowl was only 30 degrees or so.
Regarding Peterson's taking longer to cool and feeling hotter, I think it is in the brair's origins. Peterson evidently uses harder briar in their lower grade pipes, thus the long break-in time. I'm not sure how the density figures in. They used Algerian briar for many years but suffered from the same reputation.
Just my two cents.

hobie1dog · Jun 22, 2010

Last night it took 30 minutes to complete the bowl of Petersons Sunset Breeze. The bowl on the Quiet Comrade seems to be rather small and alot less dense than other designs. I thought maybe that was the whole problem...but then again, I know NOTHING.

ohin3 · Jun 22, 2010

Yeah, I have heard that straight grains smoke cooler due to fact that the heat travels along the grain up to the rim for easy transfer to the air. I don't have the bucks to own a straight grain, but I do have some flame grain that borders on straight. I have often wondered what, aside from grain, contributes to a pipe smoking hot or cool because I also have thin walled pipes that smoke cool and thick walled pipes that smoke hot. I will agree with igloo and the double surface area theory. All of my blasted or rusticated pipes smoke cool. Any junior scientists here with a large pipe collection and some sort of thermal measuring gear?

hobie1dog · Jun 22, 2010

I have the thermal measuring gear, just no pipe collection.

All one needs is a K-type thermocouple adapter that plugs into a digital multimeter. It will measure in the tenths of a degree, and the thermocouple wire has a very small exposed wire end that can be taped onto the side of the bowl to give out instant readings. The bead type thermocouples only run about $8.00 The digital multimeters that have a female thermocouple socket already built in are under $100.00 too

cortezattic · Jun 22, 2010

Lawrence, great observations, apparently confirmed by Chuckw. Like Ohin3, I have thin walled pipes that don't get uncomfortably hot, and thick walled pipes that do. Like a lot of people, I suppose, I don't own any pipes with enough straight grain on them to make any valid observations. LOL. (The digital thermometer idea is fraught with control and sampling difficulties. Anyone with infrared photographic capability?)

pstlpkr · Jun 22, 2010

Wow! I never thought my observations would (pardon the pun) heat up.

Way back when... I was talking to Skip's father about the advantages of Straight grain vs. cross grain, he was a proponent of the ease of heat traveling up the grain to the top of the pipe (straight grain), he observed that the cross grain or those with indistinguishable direction of grain; would impede the heat dissipation.

I suppose that has been one of the determining factors in my purchases of my Cavicchi pipes. They are all either straight, or flame grain. My American Calabash is a straight grain as well and the walls are very thin toward the bottom. It gets very warm very late in the smoke, but quickly cools off.

My rusticates don't seem to get very hot but do take quite a while to cool completely.
This has been a great string Marty.

hobie1dog · Jun 22, 2010

And I thought it was a mass issue, would have never thought it to be grain orientation .
I still want someone to strap a thermocouple onto the bowl and do a test. The we will know the exact temperature readout of the exterior bowl wall.

cortezattic · Jun 22, 2010

I have just tried using the set-up that hobie1dog described:

The bead type thermocouple... digital multimeter that has a female thermocouple socket already built in

and I found it to be a huge PITA to use. I wasn't about to affix it to the side of a hot briar using tape, but that would seem to be the way to go with this rig. The hottest areas that I subjected to rather clumsy spot checks didn't register much over 115 degrees, and weren't particularly uncomfortable to the touch. (Used a Butz-Choquin D'Accord bulldog.)

I still think infrared imaging is a better way to go.

python · Jun 22, 2010

This is a very interesting thread with a lot of interesting ideas and observations. I would have never thought of some of the things that have been brought up as to why some pipes get hotter than others.
Now I will start paying a lot of attention to it when I smoke my pipes.

pstlpkr · Jun 22, 2010

Hey Bob,
I'll be interested to hear about your observations on the differences between, straight grain verses cross grain, and rusticated vs. smooth, thin vs. thick walls etc.
For example do you think a cross or patternless grain smokes hotter than a straight grain over all? And, which you think cools faster after the smoke?

python · Jun 22, 2010

Lawrence, I have no idea because I have never paid attention to, or even thought about, the grain having an affect on the heat before this thread. I will start paying attention now though.
I have noticed that sandblasted and rusticated pipes do seem to cool off faster than non-rusticated/sandblasted pipes.
I have also noticed, in my experience anyway, that pipes with a lacquer/varnish/paint finish on them seem to produce more heat than pipes that have a normal stain on them.
I recall reading somewhere that the heat from a pipe should come out of the top of the tobacco chamber like a chimney, not sideways through the walls of the pipe. (I think that I read that in Confessions of a Pipeman by Gary Schrier, but don't quote me on that.)
When I read that it got me thinking. I started wondering if over tamping the ashes, causing them to be compacted too tight, caused too much insulation on the top of the tobacco and wouldn't allow the heat to escape from the top and forcing the heat sideways through the walls.
So I started experimenting a bit during smoking. When I start noticing the walls heating up a bit, I take the poker or spoon part of my pipe tool and gently loosen up the ashes a bit. By doing this, I have begun to notice that the heat starts to come out of the top of the chamber more than it was and the sides of the pipe cool down a bit. This, to me, is another reason why you don't want to tamp too much while smoking. Only tamp when you can not get the tobacco re-lit. And then only tamp, very lightly, to crush the ash to get to the unburnt tobacco.
Another thing that I have noticed that will cause the walls of a pipe to get hotter than normal is an uneven burn. For instance; if the tobacco on the front wall in burning, but the tobacco on the back side or whatever side is not, the front part of the wall is going to feel a lot hotter than the rest of the pipe. When this happens, I let the pipe cool all of the way down, loosen up the ashes and top of the burning tobacco, and re-light making sure that there is an even burn going on.
As I said earlier, I never even thought to consider grain pattern having an effect on the dissipation of the heat. But I will start paying attention to it now and keep notes on what I experience.
Like I said; this is a great thread!

pstlpkr · Jun 22, 2010

Definitely one of the most interesting threads of late, and could lead to some significant increase in the quality and time-duration if practical application of theory can be applied to the smoking process.

hobie1dog · Jun 22, 2010

speaking of infra-red technology, anyone with a hand held laser beam pyrometer can have that in one hand and fire it to the side of the bowl and never have to worry about having a thermocouple lead maintaining contact with the bowl.
But you can take some silly putty or soft gray gum eraser and use that to hold the thermocouple in place as it won't melt like the adhesive that is on any kind of tape you would use. I still think a thicker wall pipe will have some insulation effect and concentrate the thermal core into more of a chimney effect.
I've got it, it's a new product for pipe smokers.....anti-heat slip on finger protectors, yeah, that's it.

hobie1dog · Jun 22, 2010

Definitely one of the most interesting threads of late, and could lead to some significant increase in the quality and time-duration if practical application of theory can be applied to the smoking process.

Why then wouldn't you want to totally contain the heat within the chamber, and put a thin,cylindrical insert made of porcelain or ceramic to contain the heat and block all transfer of heat to the outside walls?
Remember, I KNOW NOTHING, but I did work at Owens Corning Research and Development Center for 10 years in Refrigeration and A/C, so I've got some experience with thermal design....oops, that's right, I'm over 50, and I cant' remember SH!T

cortezattic · Jun 22, 2010

Slight de-railment here, but I tried the thermocouple again on another pipe that had some tobac DGT'ing. Re-lighting the heel and puffing normally heated up the bowl to the point where it was very uncomfortable to the touch after 2 or 3 seconds. The temperature reading

was 145°F with point contact, and dropped to 115°F quickly when I used my fingertip to press the bead to the bowl. I think using a putty-like substance sinks-off too much heat, and too quickly.
Now, to put the thread back on track...

Why then wouldn't you want to totally contain the heat within the chamber, and put a thin,cylindrical insert made of porcelain or ceramic to contain the heat and block all transfer of heat to the outside walls?

My response would be that heat, though necessary to create the smoke, is, in general detrimental to the experience; and you'd like to keep things as cool as possible. So as much as anything else, the pipe is a radiator.

pstlpkr · Jun 22, 2010

Hey Marty,
Interesting thought, but the ideal is to maintain the lowest possible temperature for combustion of the tobacco. This maintains the flavor, and permits greater and greater duration of the burn time. One wants to evacuate the heat. To confine the heat would inevitably lead to a hot smoke and tongue burn or bite. Which would be counter productive.

The good quality of pipe smoking is the enjoyment factor, and duration involves technique for temperature control and precise air flow. The art as it were.

Bowl temperature/construction question

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Site Sponsors

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Smoking a Pipe Right Now

Part of the Furniture Now

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Administrator

Lifer

Administrator

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer