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Bowl temperature/construction question

(53 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by hobie1dog
  • Latest reply from Lawrence
  1. hobie1dog

    hobie1dog

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    I think I have the answer to my question, ( and yes, I did a search for it ) but on my Quiet Comrade pipe, the outside of the bowl gets pretty dag gone hot to hold at about the 20 minute mark, is it just because it is a low mass design? I assume that I need to look at getting one of those sweet looking freehand sitters that have a thick bowl section to act as an insulator. Like this one:

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. pstlpkr

    Lawrence

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    I have often wondered about that very question.
    Obviously a thin walled pipe will heat up much more than one with much thicker walls.
    but my thoughts are more to the direction of the grain as the deciding factor.
    I think that (just maybe) straight grain or a flame grained pipe may cool off faster than one with a cross grained pattern, for example.
    I have both. Judging from my unscientific observations this would seem to be true.
    It could also be true that the direction of the grain influences the direction the heat travels. For example while the cross grain has walls as thick as those used for comparison. The cross grain feels warmer for longer. The two pipes I am talking about are my Cavicchi Volcano, (straight grain [up and down]) and my Peterson Standard 307 (cross grained [side to side]). The walls of the Peterson are actually thicker than the Cavicchi, but the Peterson gets much warmer and doesn't seem to cool off as quickly.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. igloo

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    Now I have to look at the grains on my pipes to test your observations . I have a thin wall Nording that will melt the flesh off of your fingers .While its big brother free hand never heats up . It is plateu briar with straight grain . Blasts seem to smoke cooler , double surface area and all .

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. admin

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    Wow, that's an interesting observation Lawrence. I never thought about that. You just made me realize the pipes I have where you can't see a grain - I have 9 sandblast pipes, and 1 Peterson with a black bowl. I only have about 6 straight grains, and then bunch of other patterns.

    I'll have to start paying attention to how hot they get and how fast they cool off.

    Of course, the way you smoke and I think the type of tobacco has some influence here too.

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. chuckw

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    If the pipe in question is the one pictured, the problem is with your technique, not the pipe. You are either packing it too tight or smoking it to fast or both.

    Regarding straight grain vs birdseye/cross grain, I read an article several years ago that compared the two for generated heat. The testor used a pyrometer and two like sized bowls. The straight grain smoked cooler until the last 1/4 bowl. The difference for the first 3/4 bowl was 100/150 degrees f. The difference in the last 1/4 bowl was only 30 degrees or so.

    Regarding Peterson's taking longer to cool and feeling hotter, I think it is in the brair's origins. Peterson evidently uses harder briar in their lower grade pipes, thus the long break-in time. I'm not sure how the density figures in. They used Algerian briar for many years but suffered from the same reputation.

    Just my two cents.

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. hobie1dog

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    Last night it took 30 minutes to complete the bowl of Petersons Sunset Breeze. The bowl on the Quiet Comrade seems to be rather small and alot less dense than other designs. I thought maybe that was the whole problem...but then again, I know NOTHING.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. ohin3

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    Yeah, I have heard that straight grains smoke cooler due to fact that the heat travels along the grain up to the rim for easy transfer to the air. I don't have the bucks to own a straight grain, but I do have some flame grain that borders on straight. I have often wondered what, aside from grain, contributes to a pipe smoking hot or cool because I also have thin walled pipes that smoke cool and thick walled pipes that smoke hot. I will agree with igloo and the double surface area theory. All of my blasted or rusticated pipes smoke cool. Any junior scientists here with a large pipe collection and some sort of thermal measuring gear?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. hobie1dog

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    I have the thermal measuring gear, just no pipe collection.

    All one needs is a K-type thermocouple adapter that plugs into a digital multimeter. It will measure in the tenths of a degree, and the thermocouple wire has a very small exposed wire end that can be taped onto the side of the bowl to give out instant readings. The bead type thermocouples only run about $8.00 The digital multimeters that have a female thermocouple socket already built in are under $100.00 too

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. cortezattic

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    Lawrence, great observations, apparently confirmed by Chuckw. Like Ohin3, I have thin walled pipes that don't get uncomfortably hot, and thick walled pipes that do. Like a lot of people, I suppose, I don't own any pipes with enough straight grain on them to make any valid observations. LOL. (The digital thermometer idea is fraught with control and sampling difficulties. Anyone with infrared photographic capability?)

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. pstlpkr

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    Wow! I never thought my observations would (pardon the pun) heat up.
    Way back when... I was talking to Skip's father about the advantages of Straight grain vs. cross grain, he was a proponent of the ease of heat traveling up the grain to the top of the pipe (straight grain), he observed that the cross grain or those with indistinguishable direction of grain; would impede the heat dissipation.
    I suppose that has been one of the determining factors in my purchases of my Cavicchi pipes. They are all either straight, or flame grain. My American Calabash is a straight grain as well and the walls are very thin toward the bottom. It gets very warm very late in the smoke, but quickly cools off.
    My rusticates don't seem to get very hot but do take quite a while to cool completely.

    This has been a great string Marty.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. hobie1dog

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    And I thought it was a mass issue, would have never thought it to be grain orientation .

    I still want someone to strap a thermocouple onto the bowl and do a test. The we will know the exact temperature readout of the exterior bowl wall.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. cortezattic

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    I have just tried using the set-up that hobie1dog described:

    The bead type thermocouple... digital multimeter that has a female thermocouple socket already built in

    and I found it to be a huge PITA to use. I wasn't about to affix it to the side of a hot briar using tape, but that would seem to be the way to go with this rig. The hottest areas that I subjected to rather clumsy spot checks didn't register much over 115 degrees, and weren't particularly uncomfortable to the touch. (Used a Butz-Choquin D'Accord bulldog.)
    I still think infrared imaging is a better way to go.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. python

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    This is a very interesting thread with a lot of interesting ideas and observations. I would have never thought of some of the things that have been brought up as to why some pipes get hotter than others.

    Now I will start paying a lot of attention to it when I smoke my pipes.

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. pstlpkr

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    Hey Bob,

    I'll be interested to hear about your observations on the differences between, straight grain verses cross grain, and rusticated vs. smooth, thin vs. thick walls etc.

    For example do you think a cross or patternless grain smokes hotter than a straight grain over all? And, which you think cools faster after the smoke?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. python

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    Lawrence, I have no idea because I have never paid attention to, or even thought about, the grain having an affect on the heat before this thread. I will start paying attention now though.

    I have noticed that sandblasted and rusticated pipes do seem to cool off faster than non-rusticated/sandblasted pipes.

    I have also noticed, in my experience anyway, that pipes with a lacquer/varnish/paint finish on them seem to produce more heat than pipes that have a normal stain on them.

    I recall reading somewhere that the heat from a pipe should come out of the top of the tobacco chamber like a chimney, not sideways through the walls of the pipe. (I think that I read that in Confessions of a Pipeman by Gary Schrier, but don't quote me on that.)

    When I read that it got me thinking. I started wondering if over tamping the ashes, causing them to be compacted too tight, caused too much insulation on the top of the tobacco and wouldn't allow the heat to escape from the top and forcing the heat sideways through the walls.

    So I started experimenting a bit during smoking. When I start noticing the walls heating up a bit, I take the poker or spoon part of my pipe tool and gently loosen up the ashes a bit. By doing this, I have begun to notice that the heat starts to come out of the top of the chamber more than it was and the sides of the pipe cool down a bit. This, to me, is another reason why you don't want to tamp too much while smoking. Only tamp when you can not get the tobacco re-lit. And then only tamp, very lightly, to crush the ash to get to the unburnt tobacco.

    Another thing that I have noticed that will cause the walls of a pipe to get hotter than normal is an uneven burn. For instance; if the tobacco on the front wall in burning, but the tobacco on the back side or whatever side is not, the front part of the wall is going to feel a lot hotter than the rest of the pipe. When this happens, I let the pipe cool all of the way down, loosen up the ashes and top of the burning tobacco, and re-light making sure that there is an even burn going on.

    As I said earlier, I never even thought to consider grain pattern having an effect on the dissipation of the heat. But I will start paying attention to it now and keep notes on what I experience.

    Like I said; this is a great thread!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. pstlpkr

    Lawrence

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    Definitely one of the most interesting threads of late, and could lead to some significant increase in the quality and time-duration if practical application of theory can be applied to the smoking process.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. hobie1dog

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    speaking of infra-red technology, anyone with a hand held laser beam pyrometer can have that in one hand and fire it to the side of the bowl and never have to worry about having a thermocouple lead maintaining contact with the bowl.

    But you can take some silly putty or soft gray gum eraser and use that to hold the thermocouple in place as it won't melt like the adhesive that is on any kind of tape you would use. I still think a thicker wall pipe will have some insulation effect and concentrate the thermal core into more of a chimney effect.

    I've got it, it's a new product for pipe smokers.....anti-heat slip on finger protectors, yeah, that's it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. hobie1dog

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    Definitely one of the most interesting threads of late, and could lead to some significant increase in the quality and time-duration if practical application of theory can be applied to the smoking process.

    Why then wouldn't you want to totally contain the heat within the chamber, and put a thin,cylindrical insert made of porcelain or ceramic to contain the heat and block all transfer of heat to the outside walls?

    Remember, I KNOW NOTHING, but I did work at Owens Corning Research and Development Center for 10 years in Refrigeration and A/C, so I've got some experience with thermal design....oops, that's right, I'm over 50, and I cant' remember SH!T

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. cortezattic

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    Slight de-railment here, but I tried the thermocouple again on another pipe that had some tobac DGT'ing. Re-lighting the heel and puffing normally heated up the bowl to the point where it was very uncomfortable to the touch after 2 or 3 seconds. The temperature reading
    was 145°F with point contact, and dropped to 115°F quickly when I used my fingertip to press the bead to the bowl. I think using a putty-like substance sinks-off too much heat, and too quickly.

    Now, to put the thread back on track...

    Why then wouldn't you want to totally contain the heat within the chamber, and put a thin,cylindrical insert made of porcelain or ceramic to contain the heat and block all transfer of heat to the outside walls?

    My response would be that heat, though necessary to create the smoke, is, in general detrimental to the experience; and you'd like to keep things as cool as possible. So as much as anything else, the pipe is a radiator.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. pstlpkr

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    Hey Marty,

    Interesting thought, but the ideal is to maintain the lowest possible temperature for combustion of the tobacco. This maintains the flavor, and permits greater and greater duration of the burn time. One wants to evacuate the heat. To confine the heat would inevitably lead to a hot smoke and tongue burn or bite. Which would be counter productive.
    The good quality of pipe smoking is the enjoyment factor, and duration involves technique for temperature control and precise air flow. The art as it were.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. cortezattic

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    Is PipesMagazine.com still giving away a Nørding freehand for the best forum thread of the year?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. hobie1dog

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    Ok....I got it....I'm all over it......I found the solution. Case closed. Everybody go home now.

    Finned bowl by Porsche Design.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. pstlpkr

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    Nice pipe.
    But... pardon the pun.... not my speed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. dunendain

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    My thought is, that a good thick cake can overcome thin walls.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. igloo

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    It would stand to reason that a straight grain would be able to transfer heat better as the densities would remain the same on a molecular level . The trick would be to see the varibles for tight and loose densities from one briar root to the next . As no two pipes of the same size weigh the same . The bottom of the bowl retains the most heat as this is the core , gases farther up the bowl would become cooler . Hence a conical shaped bowl would smoke cooler than a cylinder shaped one .We need grant money or at least Raytek to kick in some freebies . Lets apply vacuum varibles next . lol

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. hobie1dog

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    After seeing the Porsche design, now I want to get a block of briar and machine out a bowl to go on my Quiet Comrade that looks exactly like my kart racing engine. The cooling fins for the air cooled motor would work perfectly on a bowl.

    Or a radial finned head would be great too. (yes, bear with me, it's the perfect combination of pipes and kart racing)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. hobie1dog

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    Is PipesMagazine.com still giving away a Nørding freehand for the best forum thread of the year?

    Man, I need a real pipe. That would be awesome to get. I won't be able to sleep tonite thinking about it....LOL

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. hauntedmyst

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    speaking of infra-red technology, anyone with a hand held laser beam pyrometer can have that in one hand and fire it to the side of the bowl and never have to worry about having a thermocouple lead maintaining contact with the bowl.

    An interesting thought! I used to write for an R/C car magazine and we had these little hand held infrared thermometers for tuning engines. I've thought recently about picking one up again and experimenting with one to test my different pipes. I think I will do it!

    FYI, as nifty as the Porsche pipes are, they don't smoke any cooler than any other pipe. THe one I had smoked hot. It was like holding a running Volkswagen engine in your hands.

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. cortezattic

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    Great idea Haunted; much more practical than the photo or video infrared idea I had in mind. I've even seen ads on TV for infrared medical thermometers, thought they probably don't have the necessary bandwidth.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. cortezattic

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    I found this while browsing Chris' Pipepages.com
    It's from the George Yale Summer, 1945 Catalog

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. hobie1dog

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    I'll try to find the picture of the custom pipe that was made to look like a old Shure broadcast microphone from the 60's as it had all the slots all around it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. hobie1dog

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    Now that I'm trying out different blends almost every night, I haven't noticed hardly any difference in the temp of the outside of the bowl. I'm going to dust off my K-type thermocouple and Fluke meter to get some temp readings throughout the burn cycle.

    I love the old ad you found..like I've said before, " If you can think of something, most likely it's already been made"

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. hobie1dog

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    This is the one that looks like a Shure Model 55 broadcast microphone.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. pstlpkr

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    Pardon the pun.

    That's cool.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. cortezattic

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    I like it too. Hobie, do you have an attribution or any info on it? It makes me wonder why we don't see pipes depicting automobile radiator grills. Here, I'm thinking Edsel, Mercedes, Rolls...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. hobie1dog

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    The Shure microphone pipe is featured on this web page.
    http://pipesbydesign.wordpress.com/

    They are pipes made by Johathan Drake.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. cortezattic

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    Thanks for the link. That guy is an amazing artist. He'd be a good candidate for a magazine feature story.

    There are some Art Deco looking pipes at http://www.smokingmetal.co.uk

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. hobie1dog

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    Update on bowl temps.....I have been trying out the Daves Delight blend from the Tinder Box and there must be a 30 degree difference in the outside bowl temperature from all the other blends I've tried the past several weeks. I haven't got my K-type thermocouple fixed yet but this blend is the only one that doesn't make me switch hands that I hold the pipe with, because of my fingers getting to hot.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. hobie1dog

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    Update: I have been noticing that my thicker bowl model pipes still have a lower outside wall temperature. My Peterson XL23 is likely to be the coolest smoker I have to date.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. romeowood

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    Holy crap hobie and cortez. You just gave my AMEX apoplectic shock--those pictures of the streamliner and shure pipes spell A-D-D-I-C-T for me. I'll be on eBay til i find one...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. chero

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    here is a pipe that only gets warm no matter how hard you smoke. or how hard the tobacco is.


    Edit: Fixed Pics; Lawrence

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. maxpeters

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    I have tried the porche pipes too, and they don't do much to smoke cooler than briar. The original ones that had the matal radiator fins did help somewhat.
    There's always the Spanu cork covered pipes. They're suppose to be cool smokers.

    I was talking to Dave Wolf of Briarworks yesterday, and although my questions were about what causes one pipe to gurgle more than another, his answer, which I will include here, also refers to why a lot of pipes smoke hot. I thought it was interesting.

    "Thank you for your email. 95% of the time, gurgling is from a poor airway. The airway from the bowl to the of the shank should be 5/32" in diameter. A good percentage are, a lot are not. The problem then is the diameter transition from the shank to the stem. Problems arise when there is a relatively large shank airway that goes into a relatively small stem airway... quickly. That's kind of the principle of a dehumidifier in that moist air (in this case, tobacco smoke) is sucked or pushed through a small hole. Moisture is squeezed out. In a dehumidifier, that's a good thing. In a pipe, the moisture builds up creating a gurgle. In pipes with very small airways, the additional "sucking" in order to get smoke through accentuates the problem.

    The solution is to either make sure the shank diameter is 5/32", or open it to that, Second to open the airway in the stem as much as possible without compromising its' structure. Next, and probably most important, it to chamfer, or funnel the end of the tenon so the transition from the shank to the stem is as smooth as possible.

    I actually open and/or correct airways on hundreds of pipes over the period of a year. I do it more for hard draw problems and a hot smoking pipe than for gurgling, but in every case the gurgling, or wet smoking pipe problems go away, sometimes much to the surprise of the pipe's smoker. If you have a pipe that "just doesn't smoke right", or "tastes bad" or "smokes hot", the airway is usually the problem, not the briar, the pipe or the tobacco. In a perfect world, you should never have to use a pipe cleaner to sop up moisture when smoking a pipe.

    Here is a link to the "Fixing Meerschaums" page on my website. I chose to write about Meerschaums as they are extreme examples of crappy, tight airways. The same principles exist in much the same way with briar pipes. At the bottom of that page you will find a link to an excellent article written Ken Campbell that expands on everything I've said here."

    Personally, I have a number of pipes that have straight grain, and a few have really gotten hot, but I think it's the way I smoked them. I don't think that one type grain smokes any cooler than another. But I have an open mind on this subject. After all, it's about having the most enjoyable smoke posible.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. pstlpkr

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    I love that pipe Chero.
    That cake could use some attention; however the insulating properties are self evident.
    Do you know who made it?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. chero

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    Lawrence, i got it on a trade, it says on it [ the tobacconis and no 5 ] thats all i know. it needs a clean up soon i smoke it alot.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. pstlpkr

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    It certainly looks like a good git Chero.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. bubbadreier

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    That is a great looking pipe Chero!

    Mason jars and bale top jars, mason jars and bale top jars.... that is all!

    "There’s truth in the statement that pipe tobacco will never be any less expensive than it is today, so think of your cellar as a cost averaged investment" - G.L. Pease
    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. hobie1dog

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    maxpeters- thanks for the information from Dave Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. scrantonpipes16

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    So, I am still confused as to how to keep the bowl from getting hot while smoking? What is a better way to smoke my pipe? Because my 307 has been getting hot to the touch, and I want to be able to enjoy my pipe. Also, Is gurgling a real problem or just a annoying nuisance?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. maxpeters

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    Just an annoying nuisance, as far as I know. If you don't stop it though, eventually it will creep up the stem, and you'll get a mouthfull of nasty juice. I had an old timer tell me one time that he just blew it back into the bowl. I tried that once and ashes went everywhere.
    As for the heat, I think most of my pipes get hot if I puff too fast. For me it's just a sign to slow down and take it easier. Too much heat will also ruin the taste of the tobacco for you, so it pays to smoke slowly. Or not. Depends on what you want to get out of a smoke.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. unclearthur

    unclearthur

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    Sounds like you may be packing too tight or puffing too hard. Probably both as they go together Scranton . As thick as the walls on a 307 are they should not be getting hot. Warm yes but not hot.

    If at first you don't succeed you are running about average.
    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. scrantonpipes16

    scrantonpipes16

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    Thanks I appreciate the feedback. I read on how to properly fill a bowl, so hopefully I will be able to enjoy my next smoke that much more

    Posted 1 year ago #
  52. unclearthur

    unclearthur

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    Hope it works out OK for you Scranton.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. pstlpkr

    Lawrence

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    I agree with Arthur,
    But, you might just try going slooooooow.
    Give the steam time to dissipate.
    And, by lengthening the time between puffs you can lower the temperature of the ember and produce less heat (obviously) and by extention... less steam. That should reduce your chances of gurgle, and save your fingers too.

    Here is some shamless self promotion: Start at the bottom post and work backwards.
    Dottle Diggers, Ember Chasing, and Slow Smoking

    Posted 1 year ago #

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