Whole Leaf Tobacco Lost its Flavor

[logs]

Mike McNeil talks about how he evaluates fresh whole leaf VA in this video:

Basically he has a two part process for evaluating leaf, an initial smoke and then an aged smoke

Initial Smoke:
1. Cuts up small amount of leaf with scissors
2. Smokes in a clay or meerschaum pipe looking for sweet taste
3. If it "tastes like a candy bar" he decides it's worth doing an aging test

Aging Test:
1. Makes a test "keg" from it (i.e. presses it)
2. Ages the keg (doesn't say how long but probably at least a week or two)
3. Cuts it
4. Tins it
5. Lets tins sit for 2 or 3 months to promote fermentation
6. Opens tin
7. Evaulates tin note for fruity aroma
8. Smokes it and looks for any bad flavors
9. If it still tastes good the leaf has passed the test and is worth buying in quantity.

Sounds like a pretty thorough method of evaluating VA leaf. He doesn't specify whether he's casing the leaf prior to tinning but the bigger problem is trying to find any whole leaf VA that's so sweet that it tastes like a candy bar. I don't think you can find leaf with that amount of sugar in it, not anymore.

 

[Ahi Ka]

Sorry I’m a little confused. Have you shredded and blended all of the leaf together? Or are they seperate? Or a mix of both?

I can confirm that at arsenic makes tobacco taste better, so we might need a new term to describe what you’re smelling/tasting...

the French burley is a cigar wrapper leaf isn’t it? I’m wondering if the blend has just become overwhelmed by being half cigar leaf

 

[averagejoe1]

Sorry I’m a little confused. Have you shredded and blended all of the leaf together? Or are they seperate? Or a mix of both?

I can confirm that at arsenic makes tobacco taste better, so we might need a new term to describe what you’re smelling/tasting...

the French burley is a cigar wrapper leaf isn’t it? I’m wondering if the blend has just become overwhelmed by being half cigar leaf

I have shredded an blended probably 3lbs of my leave together in half gallon jars. They all smoke nicely a few days ago? So I thought like you maybe one of my leaf types messed it up? Well I shredded up some more leafs and kept them all separate and they taste just as bad as what’s in the jars? I’m at a loss may just get a bunch of latika an drowned it out ?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Not using your garlic chopping board are ya? Lol.

I think it is highly unlikely to have received 4 bad batches of leaf from 2 different vendors at the same time. I would have thought that maybe the cigar leaf had ghosted your pipes - can smell like an ash tray for a month - but you said you cleaned them out. Last resort would be to get a new cob and try the WLT Virginia in it. If this tastes like arse, then problem is either your jarring/shredding process has been compromised by a foul flavour (while possible maybe somewhat unlikely if you have been using whole leaf for a while as probably would have happened earlier) or something significantly affecting your palette like getting sick? Have you had a COVID test? A bit tongue in cheek, but serious question too

 

[logs]

Either your taste buds are off and maybe you're sick, or you've contaminated all your tobacco when you processed it. I don't see any way that four completely different types of unblended leaf could all share the same flavor.

 

[averagejoe1]

I agree that’s why I’m on here I didn’t see how 4 different types of tobacco from 2 vendors all taste horrible. I’ll do some experimenting though and report back if I find anything. On a side note I have some C&D pirate it’s 2 years old still good moisture content and it tastes great? I also have some fusiler ration it’s great? Hell if I know I’m just gonna drown the whole leaf with something an smoke it ?

 

[Ahi Ka]

Ah I see the problem. Like you mentioned earlier, lack of Latakia

 

[logs]

I agree that’s why I’m on here I didn’t see how 4 different types of tobacco from 2 vendors all taste horrible. I’ll do some experimenting though and report back if I find anything. On a side note I have some C&D pirate it’s 2 years old still good moisture content and it tastes great? I also have some fusiler ration it’s great? Hell if I know I’m just gonna drown the whole leaf with something an smoke it ?

You could try aging it for a few months to see if it improves. Other than that I'd toss it out... I mean how many pounds of shit tobacco do you really want to force yourself to smoke? Just move on.

 

[northernpipeshed]

I thought ammonia’s presence was detectable?? Am I mistaken here??

I came over wrong there.......I meant to say I thought it could be Ammonia that had not been sweated out...

It's odd that it's all gone west though...........

 

[Sloopjohnbee]

Look I'm a novice when it comes to leaf - I only smoke it - BUT I know that depending on your source - you probably have began the fermentation/aging/curing process and they possibly sold you leaf which is early on in those processes. From my understanding people who grow thier own leave it out in the open air for 1 entire years minimum to cure then address the fermentation process. So you are probably better off - taking off the lids - critically watching the humidity - Better dryer environment and letting them cure - It's sad that you cut it up already because it may end up becoming un-smokable. Ammonia definitely built up in your jars over the past few days - but that can be fixed 'sometimes' This is why I have a hard time with Semois - RAW LEAF is a pain in the butt.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

If I were going to try some Whole Leaf I'd pack it in four jars and open a new jar every six months. After two years you'd know how much age you prefer and could then plan on stockpiling at the correct intervals for continuous supply.
At this point I've seen enough tins transformed with age that the only kind of tobacco I would suggest smoking without aging is Latakia (ideally Latakia should be blended with pre-aged Virginia).

 

[logs]

If I were going to try some Whole Leaf I'd pack it in four jars and open a new jar every six months. After two years you'd know how much age you prefer and could then plan on stockpiling at the correct intervals for continuous supply.
At this point I've seen enough tins transformed with age that the only kind of tobacco I would suggest smoking without aging is Latakia (ideally Latakia should be blended with pre-aged Virginia).

The problem is supply. Whatever leaf you buy today won't be available in two years to stockpile. It doesn't stick around that long.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

The problem is supply. Whatever leaf you buy today won't be available in two years to stockpile. It doesn't stick around that long.

The same variance applies to almost every blend on the market, buying tins with the same label doesn't guarantee consistency of the product, and even if it did, I don't know that it really matters.
Aging has a definite affect on the tobacco no matter what the growing conditions, I say control what you can and don't worry about the rest.

 

[logs]

The same variance applies to almost every blend on the market, buying tins with the same label doesn't guarantee consistency of the product, and even if it did, I don't know that it really matters.
Aging has a definite affect on the tobacco no matter what the growing conditions, I say control what you can and don't worry about the rest.

Okay but the whole point of your proposed two year test is lost if you can't repeat it with identical leaf... which you can't really do at the home blender level. The big manufacturers buy leaf enough to last for years at a time.

 

[Sloopjohnbee]

Okay but the whole point of your proposed two year test is lost if you can't repeat it with identical leaf... which you can't really do at the home blender level. The big manufacturers buy leaf enough to last for years at a time.

Logs, no one ever answers me this simple question - maybe you know - how do they store it? just out, or in Mylar bagged?

 

[Ahi Ka]

It can be stored in many ways. I use jars but that is not the most space effective and is a carryover from cellaring pipe blends. I also use Mylar, I’m gonna try vacuum sealing some leaf shortly. I know others just use the vapour proof bags that WLT send their leaf in. They just carefully cut the top and then when closing up fold it over a few times before pegging shut.

I removed all of my stems when I received the leaf as I don’t mind using threshed stuff. I also have no intention of seriously rolling cigars. A lot of people will store with the stems still intact. Just get your leaf out when your receive it and inspect for any mould/blemishes and dry down to a low case before putting away for (long term) storage

 

[Sloopjohnbee]

I was referencing the Big Tobacco - how they store it - I'd assume out in stacks temp/humidity controlled

 

[Ahi Ka]

I was referencing the Big Tobacco - how they store it - I'd assume out in stacks temp/humidity controlled

Haha yeah that makes more sense. I’m pretty sure it’s just as you have said in warehouses. I’d be interested to know at what stage leaf is broken down into 1lb or 5lb bundles for resale. I know wholesale amounts come in 5lb bundles for cigar leaf and 25lb ones for cigarette/pipe leaf. But these would no doubt have been portioned out from a bail

 

[logs]

I was referencing the Big Tobacco - how they store it - I'd assume out in stacks temp/humidity controlled

From what I've seen they store it in boxes, burlap bags or barrels. Here's a video on the Mac Baren warehouse:

Orlik Factory:

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

Okay but the whole point of your proposed two year test is lost if you can't repeat it with identical leaf... which you can't really do at the home blender level. The big manufacturers buy leaf enough to last for years at a time.

I've never seen a Virginia blend that didn't transform with a year in the jar, as long as you know what variety of leaf you're buying the rest is practically be irrelevant.

If you really want to do it like the big blending houses then maybe try doing just that, blend together leaves from multiple years to gain more consistency.
As long as the wholesaler doesn't start buying crap I doubt that blending different growing seasons would make much of a difference though.