Yet Another Kaywoodie Dating Question

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lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
tldr; When do you thin this Kaywoodie was made? Drinkless over Kaywoodie. Imported Briar over 4 digit no letter shape number. 4 hole short small ball stinger with no stampings. White inlaid clover on top.

So, I recently made a purchase online after weeks of researching the dating of Kaywoodies. I understand how hard Kaywoodies can be do date or narrow down. So, I understand if not much information can be provided.

The main thing I was focused on was the briar stampings and whether or not it was a 3 or 4 hole stinger.
  • It is Drinkless over Kaywoodie. So, most likely pre-1950s/60s based on the information I've read.
  • It has an Imported Briar stamp. So, most likely post-1936/37 based on the information I've read.
  • It is a 4 digit shape number. So, most likely pre-1936. This seems pretty well agreed upon.
  • It has a 4 hole stinger. So, most like pre-1955. This seems pretty well agreed upon.
  • It also has the "logo on top" which I haven't seen dates for but implies an earlier and/or higher quality briar pipe.
There are no other stampings on the pipe.

My main reason for purchasing a 4 digit was that it would seem to indicate a pre-WWII pipe. I just like old stuff like that and I had heard the quality of briar suffered due to the war. So, it seemed like an ideal era to get a pipe from if you wanted an oldie. And, most of the information seems to point to that so far.

I found one post on this forum of a 4 digit 4 hole with Imported Briar stamping. And, someone stated this puts it in the narrow time window of 1936-1937. No one seemed to contest this. I didn't see much additional information about the stinger.

However, I recently remembered talk about small/large ball and short/long stingers. I started digging in and learned of the importance (or possibly lack thereof) of stampings on the stinger itself. I've seen some on this forum say that stampings on the stinger were erratic. That some pipes you'd expect to see a stamping didn't and some pipes that you wouldn't expect to see a stamping did.

I also read somewhere on these forums that just before WWII the ball was downsized slightly and only the word Drinkless was stamped on the stinger. And, that it wasn't until 1941 that the nomenclature was removed entirely. They stated that it was also in 1941 when the ball was reduced in size twice. I'm not sure how accurate this information is given the statement I made above about erratic stinger stampings; which was backed by another post on these forums.

The stem appears original and it does have the logo on top. But, the stinger information seems to conflict with the pipe information. Based on the pipe, I'd guess no later than 1936/1937 mostly due to the 4 digit shape number and the Imported Briar stamping. But, based on the stinger I'd guess no earlier than 1941 due to the short stinger with a small ball and no stamping. I couldn't find a post of anyone in this same pipe vs stinger predicament.

So, I guess my question is... What say you fellow Kaywoodie collectors? 😅 Pre-WWII or Post-WWII??
I can post pictures once it's in my possession or include the sellers pictures if anyone would prefer.
 
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lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
Not withstanding the ball size, I think the pipe is pre-war.
That's what I was thinking too. I've read many of your posts on the topic and greatly appreciate your contributions. The stinger, obviously a 4 hole, confused me once I thought to dig into deeper due to things like the ball size. I did think it would be cool to have a pre-war kaywoodie and felt it was worth the risk for $25 shipped. But, I am wondering if this one was during the war (which seems more likely than after it). I'm sure it will smoke well and I'll enjoy it either way 😝 If it doesn't or I don't, no harm no foul.

Post a picture of it, and what is the shape number?
I don't have it in hand yet. Couldn't resist posting about it nevertheless. But, I can post some of the sellers pictures.

The shape number is 8711. The 11 shape I think was made roughly between 1935-1972. Pics incoming.
 
Jun 9, 2015
3,903
24,396
42
Mission, Ks
That's what I was thinking too. I've read many of your posts on the topic and greatly appreciate your contributions. The stinger, obviously a 4 hole, confused me once I thought to dig into deeper due to things like the ball size. I did think it would be cool to have a pre-war kaywoodie and felt it was worth the risk for $25 shipped. But, I am wondering if this one was during the war (which seems more likely than after it). I'm sure it will smoke well and I'll enjoy it either way 😝 If it doesn't or I don't, no harm no foul.


I don't have it in hand yet. Couldn't resist posting about it nevertheless. But, I can post some of the sellers pictures.

The shape number is 8711. The 11 shape I think was made roughly between 1935-1972. Pics incoming.
87=Screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite stem (1930s)

11=Large Billiard 1935-72

It’s a four digit so it’s most likely from the 1930’s
 

lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
87=Screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite stem (1930s)

11=Large Billiard 1935-72

It’s a four digit so it’s most likely from the 1930’s
That confirms most of what I had learned. I don't know why the stinger was throwing me for such a loop. I never could figure out what the 87 stood for. Thanks for that!

1935-39 would be a safe bet. Nice pipe, it should clean up very well.
I agree it seems unlikely to be early 30s based on the imported briar stamping. So, mid to late 30s seems like a solid guess and was about where I thought to put it. Definitely seems like a "late" 4 digit to me, but I wasn't sure how late. I'm excited to give it a spin and appreciate the kind words!

I agree, that should clean up nice and be a valued addition.
Thanks! In all honesty, it doesn't matter what date we can narrow it down to. But, I've always kind of been a dork for this stuff. Doesn't matter if it's a pipe, pocket knife, Zippo, fly rod, shotgun, or tackle box. Just fun to learn the nuances about these products and companies from times of old.
 
Jun 9, 2015
3,903
24,396
42
Mission, Ks
IIRC, the 87 referred to the finish, which I remember as Miami Brown. It's been years since I looked at any of the info I cribbed from the Kaywoodie Compendium before it disappeared without warning from the Gray Fox website.

Nice Pipe! Congrats!
I have 87 listed as "Dark Finish" in my four digit prefix list. I don't remember the prefix for Miami but will look when I get home. 47 is the only one that's burned into my subconscious (Drinkless Thorn Screw in with black vulcanite) since that's what constitutes the bulk of my collection.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,835
13,901
Humansville Missouri
As much as I rant and rave over Lees and Marxmans it’s because they are cheaper, than Pre War Kaywoodies.

It won’t ever happen again.

KB&B was making about a million pipes a month.

They had exclusive rights to the best briar that we cannot see again for two to four hundred years. They had X ray machines to sort out burls the size of office desks.

Then Hitler’s tanks rolled into Poland.

And even though their briar was several years in the pipeline they had to have relaxed standards a little in September 1939.

After the war they just weren’t the same.
 
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lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
IIRC, the 87 referred to the finish, which I remember as Miami Brown. It's been years since I looked at any of the info I cribbed from the Kaywoodie Compendium before it disappeared without warning from the Gray Fox website.

Nice Pipe! Congrats!
I was wondering where people were getting this 87 information. It would be interesting if I could find more info on it! I didn't look too hard, but tried and didn't find anything initially. I did know it was signifying the finish.

And, I've read about this Compendium. It is sad it's gone. I wonder if the waybackmachine could pull it from the grave or something. Maybe it was from before that time. Has anyone tried? If someone gives me the original link to this compendium, I could check the waybackmachine and see if it was archived.

And thanks!! My most expensive pipe purchase to date of my very small collection was a Made in Eire Peterson I got for Christmas and birthday. That dates from 1938-1940/41. It was probably the oldest thing I owned until I got this Kaywoodie, which might give it a run for its money. My oldest before that Peterson was a Case pocket knife that dates from 1940-1948/49.

And, I am very familiar with difficult dating. To be honest, these Kaywoodies aren't all that bad. The oldest item in my possession is most likely a Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co Mother of Pearl Pen Knife that my dad gave me. His grandfather gave it to him when he was just 13. Based on the construction and info from my dad, it's likely from the 1920s/30s. But, HSB knives are notoriously difficult to date. I can only state with confidence that it was made sometime between 1882 and 1962 🤣 So, Kaywoodies got it easy!!

That was a great resource, not sure if it was work from Chris Keene or not.
Just going to reiterate things like the waybackmachine and similar archives. I assume this has been checked? If it has not and we are able to find it, I cannot imagine how much that would mean to this community.

I have 87 listed as "Dark Finish" in my four digit prefix list. I don't remember the prefix for Miami but will look when I get home. 47 is the only one that's burned into my subconscious (Drinkless Thorn Screw in with black vulcanite) since that's what constitutes the bulk of my collection.
I'm definitely interested to see what you dig up!!

Thanks!! I found a list that I think is very similar to this on pipedia. It seems like a very valuable resource!

As much as I rant and rave over Lees and Marxmans it’s because they are cheaper, than Pre War Kaywoodies.

It won’t ever happen again.

KB&B was making about a million pipes a month.

They had exclusive rights to the best briar that we cannot see again for two to four hundred years. They had X ray machines to sort out burls the size of office desks.

Then Hitler’s tanks rolled into Poland.

And even though their briar was several years in the pipeline they had to have relaxed standards a little in September 1939.

After the war they just weren’t the same.
Thanks to you I've actually been keeping my eye out for some affordable Pipes by Lee! I had no idea about the X ray machines... that's crazy!!
 

lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
My oldest before that Peterson was a Case pocket knife that dates from 1940-1948/49.

And, I am very familiar with difficult dating. To be honest, these Kaywoodies aren't all that bad. The oldest item in my possession is most likely a Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co Mother of Pearl Pen Knife that my dad gave me. His grandfather gave it to him when he was just 13. Based on the construction and info from my dad, it's likely from the 1920s/30s. But, HSB knives are notoriously difficult to date. I can only state with confidence that it was made sometime between 1882 and 1962 🤣 So, Kaywoodies got it easy!!
This is so off topic it isn't even funny... I can't edit my post and I've been racking my brain.
I actually have a Schrade Cut Co pocket knife that dates 1917-1946. So, that could be one of my oldest items.
However, I forgot about an Illinois Pocket Watch that was my grandfathers. The serial number on the movement dates it quite precisely to 1916. So... THAT is the oldest item I own 😝 I'm happy to add this Kaywoodie to my collection regardless!


ANYWAY... back on topic...
Wow, this thread is timely! I recently picked up a 5186B Super Grain and was just wondering what the date would be. Thank you all for the knowledge sharing!
I'm glad this has helped you! Super grains I think might be a little easier to date (??) as there is much more quirkiness to them. It seems like the main things to look for are:
  • If there is a KBB in a clover stamp, you got a very old one (I don't think they had super grains at this time)
  • If Super Grain is over Kaywoodie or if Kaywoodie is over Super Grain
  • The number of digits/letters that identify the pipe
  • If there is an Imported Briar stamp
  • If it is 3 hole or 4 hole stinger
  • Is the logo on the shank or on the stem (on the shank is early super grain)
  • If the logo is on the stem, does it have a wide band (which came after the logo on the shank but still seems to indicate an older super grain)
  • Is the logo a black clover in a white circle or the regular inlaid white clover
Stuff that is seemingly less important to dating based on the comments in this thread, but interesting nevertheless:
  • If the logo is on the stem, is the logo on the top or the side (top could indicate older and/or higher quality)
  • Is the stinger long or short (long could indicate older)
  • Is the ball big or small (big could indicate older)
  • Stampings on the stinger (lack of stampings could indicate newer)
 

lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
Well... I got this pipe and I think we dated it pretty accurately. Turned out, the seller just took some terrible pictures and the stinger does indeed have the “Reg No 213598” and “Drinkless” stamps. Both are pretty faded, the Reg No in particularly is barely detectable. I thought the stinger looked short with a small ball in the pictures, but that may have just been my inexperience with kaywoodie stingers.

So, I think it's safe to say that this pipe is very likely 1935-1939. If a more narrow date had to be provided, you might be able to argue 1936-1937. It is definitely one of the later 4 digit pipes and one of the earlier Imported Briar pipes. I'm not sure how common to see these together.

I probably won't post any more pictures here as there isn't much more to say about it. However, I'm hoping to get some before/after pictures that I can post in the Show Us Your Kaywoodie Pipes thread.

Thanks everyone!
 
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lithicus

Starting to Get Obsessed
Sep 9, 2023
127
806
Pennsylvania
Oh, I did finally find prefix a list. Albeit, it's accuracy is uncertain. Nevertheless, thought it might be worth posting here. From kwguy on Tapatalk, 2013.

15. KB&B Rocky Briar, smooth finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1920's)
17 KB&B Rocky Briar, sandblast finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1920's)
20 KB&B Yello-Bole, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
22 KB&B Yello-bole, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
26 KB&B Yello-Bole, push tenon, ambera stem (1932-1940's)
26 KB&B Melrose w/black vulcanite push tenon stem, inbore tube (early 1920's-1926)
27 KB&B Yello-Bole, sandblast finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
28 KB&B Yello-Bole, dark finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
29 KB&B Yello-Bole, light finish, push tenon, ambera stem (1932-1940's)
30 KB&B Yello-Bole Imperial, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
30 Drinkless Kaywoodie Premier w/black vulcanite push-in stem (late 1920's)
31 Drinkless Kaywoodie Relief w/black vulcanite push-in stem (late 1920's)
31 KB&B Yello-Bole Imperial, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
32 KB&B Yello-Bole Imperial, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1932-1940's)
42 Original Kaywoodie w/inbore tube and black vulcanite push-in stem(1919-1926)
43 KB&B Ambassador w/black vulcanite push tenon, inbore tube (early 1920's-1926)
45. KB&B Yello-Bole Carburetor, smooth finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1936-1940's)
49 KB&B Yello-Bole Double Carburetor, smooth finish, push tenon, black vulcanite stem (1936-1940's)
50 Screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie Super Grain, black vulcanite stem, Virgin Finish (1930-1939 or 40)
51 Screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie Super Grain, black vulcanite stem, Miami Brown finish (1930-1939 or 40)
52 Extra large shape, screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, suntan finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
53 Extra large shape, screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, Thorn finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
54 Extra large shape, screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, Thorn finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
55. Banded Super Grain, screw in drinkless, wide solid aluminum ferrule, black vulcanite stem (mid 1930's)
56 Extra large shape, screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
57 Extra large shape, screw in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
63 Push in stem, Kaywoodie Thorn with black vulcanite stem, inbore tube (late 1920's?)
64 Drinkless Kaywoodie Thorn, w/black vulcanite push-in stem (late 1920's)
65 Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish w/black vulcanite push-in stem (late 1920's)
66 KB&B Heatherby w/black vulcanite push tenon stem, blue cloverleaf, inbore tube (early 1920's-1926)
70 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, suntan finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
71 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, light finish, black vulcanite dental arch bit (early 1930's)
72 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, suntan finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
73 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, Thorn finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
74 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, Thorn finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
76 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, rock ambera stem (1930's)
77 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
81 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite dental arch bit (early 1930's)
87 Screw-in Drinkless Kaywoodie, dark finish, black vulcanite stem (1930's)
88 Carburetor Kaywoodie, screw-in Drinkless black vulcanite stem, dark red finish (1936-1939 or 40)
89 Carburetor Kaywoodie, screw-in Drinkless black vulcanite stem, brown finish (1936-1939 or 40)
92 KB&B Yello-Bole Standard, push tenon, black vulcanite stem(1932-1940's)
95 KB&B Yello-Bole Imperial, light finish, push tenon, black vulcanite Two-Way bit (1932-1940's)
96 KB&B Yello-Bole Imperial, dark finish, push tenon, black vulcanite Two-Way bit (1932-1940's)
 
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