Who pays return shipping for undisclosed issues?

[peteguy]

I am curious as to what peoples opinion are on this matter. You buy a pipe, most likely from the bay but perhaps an online retailer if they miss something, and when it arrives you find a problem such as a crack, burnout, out of round, over reamed, tooth indents, etc. Who is responsible for paying the return shipping?

 

[warren]

That is something to be discovered before ordering the product!

 

[peteguy]

Sorry warren and others maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am wondering what your opinions are on who SHOULD pay for return shipping.

 

[warren]

Ahhh, okay I understand.
I believe it is customary that the buyer pays the postage on a return. My experience is that the retailer usually finds a way to repay the shipping. I've received additional product, gift certificates, and credits when the product I returned was, in fact, damaged or not as presented when purchased. I've also been stiffed by retailers in these types of situations.
So, buyer beware!
edit: Sorry! To answer the question from the perspective of the buyer, the seller should always pay shipping. From the other side, I'm guessing that the seller would like to decide incident by incident basis. And, as a disinterested 3rd party; "Who cares?"

 

[tppytel]

Who *should* be responsible depends on the situation, IMO. Lots of pipes are sold on eBay by sellers without much pipe knowledge. They come up with whatever description and pics they're capable of, but it's on the buyer after that. I rarely purchase pipes from eBay, but when I do I always assume I may get a nasty surprise and be out the cost of return shipping.
I can't imagine any major pipe retailer overlooking a major defect, but if it did happen I'd press them to cover the shipping. If they didn't, I would not be likely to shop there again. However, I think it's a stretch to call toothmarks or minor dings serious defects. If you're that particular about the condition of estates, then you'll have to stick to SmokingPipes or other retailers that provide comprehensive photos.

 

[peteguy]

I guess I should add my take. I feel the shipper should pay if it was undisclosed damage. As I buyer I did nothing wrong. I don't care if they say as is - how can I determine what condition as is means if you don't disclose everything. If I have remorse, wife found out, etc. I should pay as the buyer.

 

[warren]

"As is" nearly always indicates a damaged item. I would certainly query the seller as to what is the problem with the item prior to closing the sale. Obviously he is aware of whatever the defect is that forced him to list "as is." Damage caused in shipping is usually, not always, the shipper's problem. He purchased the insurance, hopefully, when he shipped the item.
There is always risk when buying sight unseen. This is particularly true when purchasing from a private person as opposed to an entity which is concerned with public opinion.

 

[mikestanley]

Obviously, any buyer who feels the pipe he bought with only the benefit of photo(s) and a description is not as advertised wants return shipping covered. Unfortunately, there really isn't a way to compel a seller to refund money, let alone pay return shipping. Really, the only thing protecting a buyer is how much the seller values his/her reputation. If the seller values that over the shipping costs, you'll probably get your wish, if not,good luck. To the question, eBay is a buyer beware environment. If you can't see everything you need to see in the photos, either request more or stay away. A seller's prose should not be viewed as anything but advertising at best. There have been plenty of pipes I wanted to bid on but didn't because the photos were either too dark and/or too few.
Mike S.

 

[tppytel]

As I buyer I did nothing wrong. I don't care if they say as is - how can I determine what condition as is means if you don't disclose everything?

You agreed to the seller's conditions. The seller is under no obligation to disclose every detail about the item, just as you're under no obligation to purchase it. But once you make that choice to purchase, you're agreeing to the contract as written. If you can't deal with the possible consequences, then don't do business there. You have no right to demand the seller sell to you under the conditions you prefer.
However, you can certainly ask the seller for more information prior to purchasing/bidding. And if the seller refused to provide any details, that would be a strong reason to walk away.
Also, I disagree that an "as-is" listing suggests known defects. Not every eBay seller (of pipes or anything else) has expert knowledge of what they're listing. And sometimes, even if the seller is capable of providing exhaustive details, he doesn't consider the added value worth the time. I'll sometimes list mid-value items as-is on eBay just because I'm listing a ton of items at once, and am willing to accept a $5-$10 lower sell price in exchange for faster listing time. Sometimes it's more important for me to get items out the door than to get top dollar for them.

 

[drwatson]

If I buy from a online store and there is something wrong with the pipe, then usually I have to pay for the shipping back. However (and this has only happened twice) they may credit your account for the shipping or if they are just sending you a replacement item, they usually don't charge for shipping again. And may throw in a goodie.

On Ebay, thats a whole different animal all together. If you are in question about something, ASK. If it's "undisclosed" info maybe the seller didn't know. As said by others, there are alot of people out there selling who don't have a clue. This does not mean that they are trying to screw you though. Hell I have made out even a time or two on this. Pipe listed as used, when I get it turns out it's brand new with pre carbon bowl. Seller didn't know this, my lucky day!

Many items I see on auction just state no returns. Also piece of advice, if you want to ask questions. Ask early!! As a person who has bought and sold on Ebay, nothing can be more frustrating than having someone ask a whole bunch of questions, want more pictures 20 minutes before the auction end.

When you are buying online from a store or Ebay, you are not holding that object in your hand. There may be something about it you don't like. So if your going to drop a couple hundred on something, do your homework and ask about those rates.

 

[warren]

tppytel: I would never purchase an "as is" item without a "satisfaction guaranteed or money back" statement if the seller did not list in depth the defects.
If you are selling a pipe that is in less than seller condition, state so. "as is" has a very defined meaning in the retail industry. Usually the defects must be noted on a tag attached to the item or in the listing.
I moving inventory is the over-riding consideration when listing an item you are certainly not catering to your customer base or trying bery hard to grow one. I hope on-line selling is not your only source of income.

 

[tppytel]

I would never purchase an "as is" item without a "satisfaction guaranteed or money back" statement if the seller did not list in depth the defects.

I guess we're using completely different language here. In every instance I've seen - retail, eBay, or otherwise - "as is" means precisely "no returns". "Satisfaction guaranteed" is the opposite of that. However, as you say, you can always walk away from purchase if you don't like the terms. That was all I was saying.

If you are selling a pipe that is in less than seller condition, state so.

I've never sold pipes on eBay - never sold pipes period, actually. I've also never intentionally withheld any information about defects on any item I've sold. However, some items take more time to precisely describe than that time is worth. For example, I've sold quite a few Lego sets on eBay recently. For a rare, high-end, collectible set, I'd inventory every single piece so that I could guarantee it's complete, and take exhaustive photos. For a set that might sell for $50, it's not worth the time. I'll list it as-is and accept that it will only sell for $40. The extra $10 isn't worth the hour of my time.
Perhaps you feel I have an obligation to spend that time if I am to sell the item at all. If so, I disagree.

"as is" has a very defined meaning in the retail industry.

eBay is not the retail industry. eBay sellers are not necessarily professional retailers.

If moving inventory is the over-riding consideration when listing an item you are certainly not catering to your customer base or trying very hard to grow one.

I'm just a guy who occasionally sells extra stuff from around my house to clear space, make a few bucks, or switch up between hobbies, as are lots of other folks on eBay, Craigslist, etc. I don't care about growing a customer base. If you want to walk away from one of my as-is listings because I'm not offering an ironclad guarantee, I'm completely fine with that. That being said, I've sold about $10000 worth of stuff on eBay over the years and never had a complaint or dispute. My buyers have always been happy with what they've gotten for the price, and I've been happy with the proceeds.

 

[warren]

Good for you. Me bad! My apologies. I made a wrong assumption and responded as if you were running a business.
I think and, I'm guessing, that the OP was speaking of a more traditional business transaction. That's the mental image I had when I responded.
Trust me, there are a lot of full time retailers operating on eBay.

 

[tppytel]

No worries. And sure, there are plenty of full-time retailers on eBay - and when those guys list something as-is, you probably do want to stay away.

 

[peteguy]

Great discussion so far and many good points. I didn't want to start any ill will between members, ebayers, etc. I just wanted differing opinions as to compare mine too.
btw on the ebay thing, be very careful if you are a seller. After some of the discussion above, I found this after searching on how they handle it.
"If a buyer wants a refund for an item that didn't match the listing description:
We ask the buyer to ship the item back to you—with tracking information—within 5 business days.
Your refund to the buyer is the total purchase price plus the original shipping charge.
You're also required to pay for the return shipping charges and you can't charge a restocking fee. "

 

[tppytel]

That eBay policy covers items that are mislisted, i.e. the buyer receives the wrong thing entirely. It doesn't give the buyer the power to override a no-returns policy merely because they are unhappy with the condition.

 

[peteguy]

It reads to me that an undisclosed problem is exactly what this covers. It is listed under Buyer Protection. Item does not match the listing description = undisclosed issue.

 

[7ach]

 In my opinion an undisclosed problem is the sellers fault and they should pay for shipping both ways. If I simply don't like it or change my mind, return shipping is on me.

 

[tppytel]

True, it does have a "does not match" clause there, but that's adjudicated by eBay against the actual description, not against what the buyer had hoped to receive. I have no personal experience with this on either end, but from what I've read they will not automatically side with the buyer. If I were to snap a pic of a pipe, list it as "used, sold as-is" and it has a burnout, the buyer is likely out of luck. If I were to describe it as "minor nicks and dings, but no functional problems", then the buyer might have a case with a burnout, but not for toothmarks. As a buyer, you're entitled to get what's described, but it's up to you to decide if what's described is what you want.
But again, I'm only reporting secondhand information here. Other folks might have more direct experience. In practice - as both a buyer and seller - I've always found that a tiny bit of communication before the sale goes a long way.

 

[peteguy]

Thank you Michael - it is great to get the perspective of a respected seller.