Who Makes the Real Dunhill Now?

[mingc]

Today the rain finally eased and I walked to my local pipe shop again to re-check the Dunhill doppelgangers. I have attached photos of the tins for the two different clones of Royal Yacht that were there. I chose Royal Yacht only as an example; there were at least a half-dozen other Dunhill blends available in these two labels. The Peterson's version is clearly marked "Peterson's" on the tin, but does not say "Dunhill" anywhere. The other tin is labeled "Dunhill" and says "Made under license in the EU" but does not include the name of the maker. Though both are 50 gram tins and both were imported from the EU, the "Dunhill" labelled version costs more than 20% less than the Peterson version. (At current rates of exchange, these two tins cost about $22.40 and $17.25 USD, respectively.) So, for me this is still not clear. The Peterson version, which has the consensus of the group as the "official" version, does not mention Dunhill by name, but the other EU version from an unknown maker says they have a Dunhill License.
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Pictures of the backs of the tins might show the date codes and give us more clues. But otherwise, as other folks have alluded, the Dunhill tin is older but made by the same outfit as the Peterson, Scandinavian Tobacco Group.

 

[augiebd]

And I thought genealogy got complicated.

 

[cigrmaster]

STG was making it. BTW, Dunhill never made Deluxe Navy Rolls. That blend was introduced into the line up by Murray's. McConnell only made a couple of the blends when Dunhill licensed them off. Most and eventually all of them were made by Murray's until the blends went to Orlik and STG under a licensing agreement with BAT.
BAT doesn't own STG. BAT bought STG's cigarette and snus operations.
The line of Dunhill clones that K&K offered under the Robert McConnell marque were considered to be good blends, but not the same as what STG had been producing under their licensing agreement with BAT. At best, only a few of the blends might have used the McConnell's recipes, since McConnell didn't make all of the blends. The rest were likely retinnings of K&K blends. K&K bought McConnell in the early 1990's.
Under the FDA Deeming regulations, the Dunhill blends would not have been grandfathered in because STG pulled the Dunhill blends from the US market from 2008 to 2010.
After BAT decided to get out of the pipe tobacco business, STG was able to negotiate a deal with BAT to continue making the blends by not using the Dunhill name. They could use the label artwork. So they returned to making these blends under the Peterson name, since they owned the rights to that name for making tobaccos. The Peterson tobaccos are not associated with the Peterson pipe making business.
For those of us who were smoking Dunhill blends when Dunhill made them, the real Dunhill blends haven't been made since the early 1980's.

Thanks Jesse I knew an answer would be forth coming. It doesn't surprise me it was you who answered, You are certainly a wealth of knowledge on all things pipes and tobacco. In fact I think they should dedicate a room just for you.

Ask Jesse anything, subject doesn't matter, He would happily spend 9 plus per day to keep the room busy and informative.

How about it Jesse do you feel like this would be fun since people would look upon you as the Pipe Xzar. Maybe there is a cabinet seat for you.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Well, don't kiss Jesse's behind toooooo much; he's not a Mod!

Yes, for facts, ma'am, just the facts, you can't beat Jesse, Jon Guss and a handful of others.

 

[mingc]

McConnell only made a couple of the blends when Dunhill licensed them off. Most and eventually all of them were made by Murray's until the blends went to Orlik and STG under a licensing agreement with BAT.

Jesse, do you recall which blends were made by McConnell under the Dunhill label? Did McConnell continue to make them after K&K acquired McConnell?

 

[sablebrush52]

I used to know which, but these days I'm lucky if I can remember where I put my glasses. But, I believe that one of them was The Royal Yacht. IIRC, McConnell only made the few blends for a couple of years, so they would not have been making them when K&K absorbed them in the early '90's.

 

[sablebrush52]

Thanks Jesse I knew an answer would be forth coming. It doesn't surprise me it was you who answered, You are certainly a wealth of knowledge on all things pipes and tobacco. In fact I think they should dedicate a room just for you.

Ask Jesse anything, subject doesn't matter, He would happily spend 9 plus per day to keep the room busy and informative.

How about it Jesse do you feel like this would be fun since people would look upon you as the Pipe Xzar. Maybe there is a cabinet seat for you.

Like in a pipe cabinet?

To quote from someone both witty and intelligent (a nice change from who's usually getting quoted these days), I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.

 

[mso489]

I don't know how sable' and others keep track of all this stuff, but thank you for the info. It's like all the Biblical "begats" and takes some concentration.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

They were produced since 2005 by the Scandinavian Tobacco Group (STG), which was acquired in 2009 by British American Tobacco (BAT).

All Dunhill tobacco-related interests (cigarettes, cigars, pipe tobacco) were sold a long time ago (in 1981) to Rothmans (who many years later merged with BAT.

In 2019 STG acquires the rights (after Dunhill announced that it would no longer sell or market cigars and pipe tobaccos in 2018) to reintroduces the old Dunhill blends under the Peterson brand umbrella, STG-Lane Ltd (the Lane, Ltd. was sold to the Scandinavian Tobacco Group in 1987).

There were several companies (with shared capital) that have been converging over the years, and consequently the acquisition of some shared rights.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

They were produced since 2005 by the Scandinavian Tobacco Group (STG), which was acquired in 2009 by British American Tobacco (BAT).

No. Scandinavian Tobacco Group is an independent, publicly traded, company, which started doing business in the 1960’s. In 2008, they sold their cigarette business to BAT, but STG has never been owned by BAT.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Under the FDA Deeming regulations, the Dunhill blends would not have been grandfathered in because STG pulled the Dunhill blends from the US market from 2008 to 2010.

That may or may not be correct. There is said to have been informal guidance from the FDA that the continuous production requirement will be interpreted as having been produced for any market anywhere. That may or may not prove to be what the final rules say. And I don’t know if STG produced Dunhill pipe tobacco for any other market from 2008-2010.

At a time just a few years ago when people were chasing after stuff made by other companies in search of Dunhill clones, STG was cranking out the same tobaccos for at least the Swiss market. Wellauer Nightcap, otherwise the same tin art

I know attorneys who represent tobacco companies, though none with ties to STG. (I know a few who profited greatly from suing the cigarette companies). But I know from their accounts that the realities of what goes in in the world of regulation, licensing, and business decisions made by multinational corporations are so far removed from what we are told is happening or why it happens as to be laughable. We hear largely what the marketing department is told to say by higher ups after decisions are made.

The key to running a sales force is the same as growing mushrooms. Keep them in the dark, covered with manure. That likely includes the VP’s of marketing. It certainty includes the reps who call on shops. Whatever narrative will help sell the product will be the truth du jour.

There seems to be a great thirst for “inside information” amongst pipe and cigar smokers. Give it up. Smoke what you enjoy, enjoy what you smoke.

 

[mingc]

I used to know which, but these days I'm lucky if I can remember where I put my glasses. But, I believe that one of them was The Royal Yacht. IIRC, McConnell only made the few blends for a couple of years, so they would not have been making them when K&K absorbed them in the early '90's.

Thank you.

I have the same problem with the glasses. That's why I keep them on when I nap . . .

 

[danish]

No. Scandinavian Tobacco Group is an independent, publicly traded, company, which started doing business in the 1960’s. In 2008, they sold their cigarette business to BAT, but STG has never been owned by BAT.

Yes, but ‘STG’ started tobacco production in Denmark already in 1750, as ‘Augustinus factories’, whose present foundation still owns STG and some more..
See Chr. Augustinus Fabrikker - Wikipedia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chr._Augustinus_Fabrikker

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Yes, but ‘STG’ started tobacco production in Denmark already in 1750, as ‘Augustinus factories’, whose present foundation still owns STG and some more..
See Chr. Augustinus Fabrikker - Wikipedia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chr._Augustinus_Fabrikker

They own 25% of STG. The Wikipedia article incorrectly states the merger into what is now STG as 1861. It was 1961. Swedish Match was a major shareholder from 2010, but sold out in 2017. The stock trades on the Danish equivalent of NASDAQ.

 

[danish]

They own 25% of STG. The Wikipedia article incorrectly states the merger into what is now STG as 1861. It was 1961. Swedish Match was a major shareholder from 2010, but sold out in 2017. The stock trades on the Danish equivalent of NASDAQ.

You are correct. I should know better than referring to a badly edited Wikipedia page and be more precise with regards to ownership of STG. Augustinus (tobaccoproducer since 1750) is the biggest shareholder and the next one is C.W.Obel A/S (from 1787). Both have made quality tobacco products in Denmark for several hundred years.

Here is STG's own list of major share owners: Shareholder Structure | Scandinavian Tobacco Group A/S - http://investor.st-group.com/stock-information/shareholder-structure

But in any case, the purpose os my reply was to make members aware, that STG do have a lot of experience with producing quality tobacco, like 'newcomers', such as Dunhill, etc...

I trust and 'feel' that most of the 'Dunhill' tobaccos still being produced here in Denmark by STG, now under the name of Peterson, indeed are very similar, quality wise and taste wise, to the ones made by Dunhill in England, many years ago. I however don't always trust my own (and other's) memory regarding how all the different tobacco blends tasted in the 1980's. Sourcing eg Syrian Latakia, is unfortunately not so easy today...

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

You are correct. I should know better than referring to a badly edited Wikipedia page and be more precise with regards to ownership of STG. Augustinus (tobaccoproducer since 1750) is the biggest shareholder and the next one is C.W.Obel A/S (from 1787). Both have made quality tobacco products in Denmark for several hundred years.

Here is STG's own list of major share owners: Shareholder Structure | Scandinavian Tobacco Group A/S - http://investor.st-group.com/stock-information/shareholder-structure

But in any case, the purpose os my reply was to make members aware, that STG do have a lot of experience with producing quality tobacco, like 'newcomers', such as Dunhill, etc...

I trust and 'feel' that most of the 'Dunhill' tobaccos still being produced here in Denmark by STG, now under the name of Peterson, indeed are very similar, quality wise and taste wise, to the ones made by Dunhill in England, many years ago. I however don't always trust my own (and other's) memory regarding how all the different tobacco blends tasted in the 1980's. Sourcing eg Syrian Latakia, is unfortunately not so easy today...

Sourcing is hugely different. STG makes a quality product given what they have to work with and the constant pressure they and other companies are under to always lower costs.

Even with all the business school types they have on board, many acquisitions, divestments, vision statements, etc., that they have gone through in recent years, shares of STG,, with reinvested dividends, have historically lagged an index of the Danish NASDAQ. A very tough industry, an even tougher niche to be in .