When Artisans Make Lower Grade Pipes

[haparnold]

The idea that artisan pipe prices can't go down past a certain point is true, but what you're really looking at is a problem of entry (as economists call it). The way this market clears (if it is actually saturated) is that guys who are good at making pipes stop making pipes and start selling insurance, digging ditches, etc. because they could get more money.
We might not see a change in the price of a pipe if competition has pushed it down to the "zero economic profits" zone, but there may be less new pipes entering the market overall.
Regarding the original post, I'm a big fan of Briarworks, and I think the "middle brow" pipe is a good spot for the market to go.

 

[swilford]

I think it's easy to read too much into either wider economic trends or perceived (by some) trends in the pipe world. Of the guys listed, most of them started their lower price brand a long time ago (Sara Eltang in 2005; Ligne Bretagne, gosh, about the same time; Alan Brothers was started in 2014, I think). And in the case of Tom Eltang and Jeff Gracik, I know that it had way more to do with creative, smart people just wanting to try to do something different with some of their time.
In the case of BriarWorks, that's just not a lower-priced brand of artisans. That was spun up as a whole factory by Todd and Pete with the idea of being able to set up a serious American factory brand, complete with of employees, serious capital equipment and whatnot. It's just not the same animal as these other things.
Of course, in some cases your guesses about the market may be true. China has been, well, weird, for the past couple of years. Some folks have experienced real slow down in China, while others just aren't seeing much difference. What we've seen is a decline in 2017 and 2018, then growth in 2019. Of course, we have no idea why, though we do probably have a lot more visibility in the market than most (we have an office there; we carry lots of brands etc etc).
The high grade pipe market isn't particularly gloomy, though it might be for some artisans and it's certainly not as frothy as it was a couple of years ago thanks to rapid year over year growth in the market in China.
Anyway, I'm not saying that you're universally mistaken--surely some of the sorts of brands you're discussing are because business is slowing lately for specific artisans. But most of the big examples of this long predate the current market environment and were started for very different reasons (at root: figuring out factory-esque pipes is interesting in a different way to artisan pipe making to some artisans).
Sykes

 

[npod]

figuring out factory-esque pipes is interesting in a different way to artisan pipe making to some artisans

Such an important point and concept to keep in mind. As with many things pipe-related, it is crucial to focus on a specific topic or question. We as a group tend to have bias when discussing pipes and the larger market therein. As you mention, there are many "markets" to consider.

 

[husky]

So China, who is a large part of the market, is slowing down.

Who is going up, India?

 

[swilford]

So China, who is a large part of the market, is slowing down.

Who is going up, India?

On China, I think it's just really unclear what's going on with that market as a whole. Different people have had very different experiences over the past couple of years. It's certainly maturing and the growth isn't as crazy as it once was, but that's very different from suggesting that the market--especially at the end of the chain to the consumer--is way down. I'm actually not suggesting anything, other than that I think it's really difficult to tell what's going on there. The market is complex and murky, we have limited information and those indicators we do have are often pointing in opposite directions.
India, to my knowledge, continues to be a pretty tiny pipe market.
Sykes

 

[pappymac]

For me, a high end pipe is in the $300 range because I tend to be frugal when buying a new pipe. I haven't given any more thought to buying a Tom Eltang than I have to buying a Bentley.
It only makes sense to me that some of these carvers would produce pipes in a lower price range (and with different branding) because there are more pipe smokers who can afford the less expensive pipes. The alternative is to continue making pipes priced at over $1,000 that sits on the shelf longer before being purchased.

 

[sasquatch]

That has always been my thought - If I had, say, a week, I could make 1 pipe that is the greatest pipe ever, and hope someone buys it for 1500 bucks. Or I could make 5 pipes that are pretty good, and ask 300 for them. Even if I sell only 4 of those, that's better than NOT selling the 1500 dollar pipe for a week or a month or never.

 

[disinformatique]

India, to my knowledge, continues to be a pretty tiny pipe market.

Sykes is correct. There arent more than a handful pipe smokers in India and most have jobs which let them travel outside the country a few times a year so they stock up pipes and tobacco like that. There is no market for pipes and pipe tobacco in India. A typical Indian has little to no patience to learn pipe smoking or invest the initial $100-$200. I am one of the few anomalies in the Indian pipe world.
I once tried to get Laudisi Catalog of pipe tobacco to India but the redtape for getting an import license and necessary permits makes it an extremely expensive venture with no ROI guaranteed. The import duties, federal and states taxes are extremely high specifically for pipe tobacco. The Big Tobacco Brothers don't want pipe tobacco in India. STG UK specifically told me they will not sell anything in India except the cheapest OTC's
However, if you can somehow import cigars to India for cheap, there is a big market for it.
Cheers,

Chris

 

[ssjones]

Zero Todd Johnson pipes available on his site (all sold, range $2500-$4500), but nine available via SmokingPipes.
JT Cooke - I can't find any available pipes.

 

[raevans]

Is there a chance that they will hurt their real high line pipes?

In most cases no. It's more of a matter of survival. You can have an Artisan that can produce a stunning work of art that will get top dollar as soon as it's made available. The only problem is that some of the Artisans can not produce enough of those incredible "high end" pipes to survive on alone. For example, Trevor Talbert has to be one of the most creative, detail oriented, phenomenal artisans in the business today. I think that pretty much everyone would love to be the proud owner of one of his "Halloween" pipes. But it takes longer to make one of those masterpieces than an ordinary pipe. Trevor could make eight of those pipes a year and every one of them would sell for top dollar. But by taking the time needed to make that particular type of pipe, he must sacrifice time that could be used to make other pipes. So to offset the time lost, (and potential revenue lost), introduce a different line. Possibly pipes that are machine turned and then finished by hand, most of the initial work carving being done by someone else and then the artisan finishes it, etc. Price it so it can be purchased without too much heartburn and it smokes well and you now have a way to take the time to produce the "high end" masterpieces and still be able to eat.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

That has always been my thought - If I had, say, a week, I could make 1 pipe that is the greatest pipe ever, and hope someone buys it for 1500 bucks. Or I could make 5 pipes that are pretty good, and ask 300 for them. Even if I sell only 4 of those, that's better than NOT selling the 1500 dollar pipe for a week or a month or never.

You making a perfect pipe has less to do with selling it for $1,500 than what you've established your value level at among pipe buyers. One of the top 5 pipe carvers could probably sell one of your $300 pipes for $1,500 faster than you could sell one of theirs for $1,500. At that level, it's more about perceived value than reality. And buyer ego. This is why, IMHO, ultra big guy end carvers are potentially making a mistake by selling a lower end product.

 

[sasquatch]

Honestly, Hoosier, the reason I don't make 1500 dollar pipes is... I'm not really good enough, design wise to do so. It might... might... be the case that some other pipe maker could get more for my work with his stamp, but more likely is that most of his collectors would realize that it wasn't of the best of that guy's work and ignore it.
I think value is ... more objective... than just a set of stamps/personality. Obviously there is more to it than that, there is a collectibility/known face/whatever for collectors. But S Bang pipes are super perfect in a lot of ways, and I don't strive to hit a bunch of that stuff with EVERY SINGLE pipe I make. The briar's not that good, or I don't have that much time, or I .... simply don't feel like it - there's lots of pressure when you are trying to be amazing.
I think all the carvers being talked about in this thread have distanced themselves utterly from the tier-2 product - different stamps, names, price point etc. I don't see much overlap.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I have one of your pipes. Want the ideal shape for me but I bought it unsmoked from someone else at a nice price. It's half bent and requires a bit of wiggling to pass a cleaner, not unexpected for a half bent. I'd have liked it drilled a bit later but the drill is overall very good. It smokes quite good. I don't believe any of the top Carver's would have done much better with that piece of briar and shape. But they would have charged double or more.

 

[husky]

There is no market for pipes and pipe tobacco in India.

When I wrote " China is slowing down, who is going up?" I meant more large scale financially.

I assume that the chinese market evolved through a lot of people getting relatively wealthy and

sought ways to display their wealth? This combined with the recent "hipster" trend.

If India develops in a similar fashion then perhaps they will create the next market for artisans?

 

[pipestud]

The LAST THING pipe makers want to do with their lower priced line of pipes is make them poorly or with poor materials. That would give buyers the perception that their higher end pipes must not be very good either. The difference in these more economical lines from well known pipe makers like Eltang, Talbert, Gracik, Klein, Prevost, etc, is usually (but not always), smaller sized pipes, pipes with preformed stems and simple design. AND, you can bet that they are created as a marketing tool to promote their higher end line of pipes. I admire those pipe makers for their "second" line of pipes. They are making pipes that are fine smokers and priced to fit just about any sized pocket book.

 

[mso489]

Just for discussion, let me throw in a few contrarian thoughts. I think $300 is way above Joe Sixpack's budget, except for devoted Joe's who happen to know about higher level pipes. As I have posted before, if you learn about pipes you can pick up some "good" factory pipes like Tusge's and Peterson's new for forty bucks on occasion. My point isn't to be penny pinching, but that your Joe's who can spend $300 are a highly specialized group. Just for example, I am devoted to my pipes, but I haven't gone anywhere near $300. I think artisans who have risen to the top price bracket, who then offer what I would call upper mid-price pipes, have the elbow room. Their brands are known; their top tier products are established; and outreach to a larger customer base is (to my mind) a good move. As to whether people will divert from buying pipes to tobacco, I think the tobacco squeeze also diminishes some of the fun of tobacco pipes and may deflate the market for both tobacco and pipes, I'm sorry to say.

 

[disinformatique]

When I wrote " China is slowing down, who is going up?" I meant more large scale financially.

I assume that the chinese market evolved through a lot of people getting relatively wealthy and

sought ways to display their wealth? This combined with the recent "hipster" trend.

If India develops in a similar fashion then perhaps they will create the next market for artisans?

The problem in India is two fold. First, most Indians don't have the patience to learn how to smoke a pipe, but most public will happily smoke a $30-$50 cigar on any given day. There is no shortage of disposable wealth here, just patience is a rare commodity. Hukka/Sheesha bars are abundant. Niche cigar lounges and retailers. However, as soon as you open your mouth to tell someone that a nice briar pipe costs arond $30-$40 they balk at the idea !!
Second, the current right wing government, has tremendous taxes on tobacco products. There is a big anti-tobacco lobby even when India is one of the largest producer of virgnias in the world. The Indian govt has specifically targeted pipe tobacco and I have no idea why. The idiots in the right wing/religion based party which controls the govt actually want to make India and tobacco/alcohol-less country and at the same time throw lavish parties and spend millions on their kids' marriages. NOTHING for the peasant, EVERYTHING for the Lords.
I cant wait for the day I get out of this country. I love it, but its too idiotic when it comes to my hobbies.
Cheers,

Chris :puffpipe:

 

[husky]

I cant wait for the day I get out of this country. I love it, but it's too idiotic when it comes to my hobbies.

Thanks for the info! Just to perhaps cushion the blow a bit, you may want to entertain the idea that things may not be much better in another country when you do leave. :?