What triggered the FDA changes?

[brian64]

IMO, it's naive to draw too clear a distinction between the largest corporations and the federal agencies. Over the years, these have become entwined to the point that they constitute one large syndicate being operated by the same group of people...the same "culture".
Yes, it is the federal agencies who have the enforcement power...but they are mostly owned and operated by the banks and largest corporate interests, imo, for the purpose of destroying competition. That is not the free market...that is essentially just organized crime.

 

[perdurabo]

Brian that's simplified, distilled, and essentially correct. In the name of Progress monopolies were crushed, paving way to the birth of a Hidden Monopoly: The Love Affair of the Lobby and Government. But government props this up, this is how the Leviathan grows. Looks like there is room for a Pipe Lobby, that is, to exist in this Fabian Society we find ourselves in.
Bashing business for the sake of disguising and furthering the progress, is despicable. Let's put the blame where the blame should be. The FDA, and the Executive Branch where the FDA gets its marching orders. Now you can throw the lobby in there, and you have a very unique form of Totalitarian Despotsim. Wow, we have come a long way, to end up where we started.
I wish it was just because of mold. So simple.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Whoa, Brian, whoa! That's a sweeping statement if ever there was one. Banks do not own agencies, nor do corporations. True, they all lobby to have their interests served, and in the case of the FDA action here, they are destroying competition, but generally not.

 

[brian64]

@jpmcwjr: My use of the phrase "owned and operated" is of course not literally true in a legal sense, but, IMO, it is true in a practical sense. There is typically a revolving door between the corporate boardrooms and the regulatory agencies.

 

[iamn8]

It is a moral imperative that we wage war against those e-cig bastards!!! The party is over and they are to blame!!!!

 

[warren]

I just do not understand why we insist on blaming businesses and government. If there is blame, it lies with the voters. The "tobacco problem" has evolved into purely a social debate. Tobacco companies are now largely owned by publicly traded companies, you, me and your neighbors, they do not operate in a vacuum. Neither do governments. Put the blame where it properly belongs; on you, me and our neighbors.
If you are not happy with the direction things are going, change it. Get sufficient numbers in hand so that your opinion and beliefs have weight. Rent or lease a few politicians. Running in circles, peeing down our legs and screaming in righteous indignation is easy. Me? I'm not particularly interested in how it all plays out. I'm too old to care anymore. There are other, more serious issues which take up my time. And, I would be perfectly happy to see my grandson grow up in a "tobaccoless" world. Other than that, this subject is usually entertaining, rarely dull and very rarely ever contain any new insight.
I like that my retirement plan managers and my own personal investments include companies which own tobacco companies if, very important this, those companies pay out. I fully understand that many shareholders want to see a divestment of such holdings. Guess which side will win out in the future?

 

[iamn8]

Warren, seriously? Does voting satisfy any anger you might have on a daily basis? You're thinking big picture, but life happens everyday, not big picture.

 

[tmb152]

Does voting satisfy any anger you might have on a daily basis?

Quite true. In that case, I think a good remedy is to call, or especially, WRITE your senators and representatives, OFTEN. Let your voice be heard. They do listen.

 

[rhoadsie]

If there is blame, it lies with the voters. If you are not happy with the direction things are going, change it. Get sufficient numbers in hand so that your opinion and beliefs have weight.

I'm sure that notion placates the Bernie supporters...don't want to get political but sometimes you can't swim against the tide. Mods strike as you will.

 

[deathmetal]

Lust for power and dominance, which is what always drives monopolists.

 

[perdurabo]

I like Monopolies, just not the ones that are propped up by Governments.

 

[warren]

Didn't say anything about voting in my post. Nor do I have any anger, a mild resentment or discomfort maybe, I'm too pragmatic to get emotional over the issue. Perhaps I should have used the word people instead of voters so as not to confuse. There is no political debate to speak of. Tobacco use crosses all lines, political and economical. Expecting or trying for a political solution is wasted effort. The debate is over, only the speed of the demise of tobacco is adjustable. I sincerely doubt tobacco use will ever become illegal. It will become more of an oddity though, with fewer people using such. Even the growth of smoking in third world countries will diminish.
I said to gather the people or, weight in numbers and moneys. Then rent enough politicians to sway the Congress. Sitting around wringing hands and carping might make the pain less acute but, it does nothing to improve the situation. Also, it's easier than organizing, raising moneys and lobbying. Writing your representative might help, promising them a million votes or so and being able to deliver, that will carry weight, sway politicians and garner support. To do so there must be moneys and organization. It's not gonna happen though, society has spoken and until there is a change at that level nothing much will change.
Even so-called "Big Tobacco" realizes there is nothing they can do to stop the assault on their businesses. Companies such as RJR were smart enough to see what was coming many years ago. They purchased in other industries, spread their risk, stayed profitable. Tobacco products represent only a small percentage of the income now I believe.
Society has marched on and we users are eating the dust, sweeping up the manure after the parade passed us by.

 

[perdurabo]

i like the Monopoly Idea. Let the Business fail on its on merit, not something outside the equation. Last time I checked, that's not politics, it's survival of the fittest. Sounds Darwinian. Wow! Pretty pragmatic notion.

 

[warren]

To get back to the OP's question, "the trigger." I think one only has to look back to the 50s. Maybe a bit further, the American Cancer Society was possibly the "trigger". Quietly and somewhat inefficiently this, more or less grass roots group started a war against cancer. Nothing political about about the group, doctors, housewives, children of cancer victims, etc. quietly began sending out mailings, using public interest ads, small meetings in towns and cities, etc. in which smoking was decried as an evil. From that wee start the group gained stature and support, growing rapidly and gaining allies as there really was no rational defense for smoking. The cause morphed from a medical and health issue into a social one. No big businesses involved, no governmental moneys. The "trigger" was pulled and the first round fired over three generations ago with the "boomers".
It is actually quite a success story. The American Cancer Society is no longer relevant, just a small cog in the machinery. Their mission has been co-opted by many other groups, smoking is still the most visible target, easily assailed. But, many targets have come and gone, butter, coffee, red meat, insulation, sunshine, genetics, etc. Smoking is still the big evil, an easy and visual target, a money generator all can rally around.
How many of you have read an obituary which requested donations to the "tobacco lobby"? The American Cancer Institute?

 

[tmb152]

But, many targets have come and gone, butter, coffee, red meat, insulation, sunshine, genetics, etc. Smoking is still the big evil, an easy and visual target, a money generator all can rally around.

Adding to what Warren said, the ACS, like so many organizations, started out with the best of intentions, but quickly morphed into being an activist group attacking behavior rather than treatment and cures. Just as violent crimes involving the use of guns evolved into attacking the guns themselves as the problem rather than the behavior and the people using them.
So, now, smoking is an evil, in any form or usage, banned, shunned, untolerated, children are taught at an early age to revile it. Data and statistics are irrelevant, or worse, are frequently skewed in order to support the desired result. Things which fly in the face of the accepted data are quickly buried. Guilty until proven innocent in a court where such arguments cannot even be made. The irony is that along with many of the above, it turns out that butter is actually good for you, better than margarine, coffee has good attributes, first it was carbohydrates now it is considered that protein is better. Truth is that most anything can be found to have a negative side to it, or a good side, if looked for, and if they wanted, they could ascribe everything from hamburgers, to taxation, to public schools, to cars or cellphones to lawyers and doctors themselves, as a leading cause of death, accidents and health problems. In the end, it must be left up to the individual to have the freedom and the right to choose how they live so long as it does not harm others. I would bet that not a one in the anti-tobacco group at the FDA have any real first-hand experience in the smoking a pipe. The argument that it is in the interest of the public good is pure horse-hockey, most any business can be made to cater to smokers or have a smoking section where the air is filtered and cleaned before reaching others. The more you isolate an individual from something, the more sensitive, not less, they become, and so demand even more isolation. We have become a nation of spoiled, whining, mewling babies who get upset, bothered and offended at every little thing.

 

[warren]

If I owned a bar or restaurant and had the option of putting out the cash to create a smoking area or simply going along with the local ordinance banning smoking in public areas, I would opt for simply banning. No point is spending the moneys for smoke eaters, partitions, etc. The smoking community is simply too insignificant to cater to. Smokers will, most likely come, in spite of the ban, to dine with the family or imbibe with friends. Smokers will tolerate a local ban, or not, and smoke outside. Pipe smokers are simply collateral damage in the war against tobacco. Too small a group for any consideration. I might consider a small outside area with a radiant heater and overhead protection. I might if I was convinced it was money well spent. Perhaps such an amenity would draw smokers from the rival bars or diners as it might show I was sympathetic to the plight of the smoker.
It's a "no brainer", especially when businesses, at least in Anchorage, report an uptick in profits after a city wide smoking ban went into effect. Income increased in bars and eateries. Non-smokers were spending more time in the now smoke free business and spending more money. Most anecdotal evidence seems to support such. Cigarette smokers meekly accepted such bans. Pipe smokers are so rare that their wishes and comfort can be safely ignored by the owners of such businesses.
We are simply on the wrong side of the debate no matter whom we wish to blame for our predicament.
We pipe smokers are simply too small a number, economically and socially, to be relevant and our situation is easily ignored by everyone, government, big business, small business, etc. "Horse-hockey" or not, we pipe smokers are not setting the agenda. No one likes to be considered irrelevant and ignored. Sorry, but that appears to be our lot in life for the foreseeable future.
I would bet, one person smoking a pipe in public generates more hard feelings and resentment in the people witnessing such a spectacle than warmth and friendship. For every "reminds me of my grandfather" I would bet there are many more "idiot" and such, unspoken thoughts.

 

[pipesmokingtom]

So, now, smoking is an evil, in any form or usage, banned, shunned, untolerated, children are taught at an early age to revile it. Data and statistics are irrelevant, or worse, are frequently skewed in order to support the desired result. Things which fly in the face of the accepted data are quickly buried. Guilty until proven innocent in a court where such arguments cannot even be made.

And this is the real core of the problem. Data, statistics, common sense, equity - completely irrelevant. If a politician does ANYTHING to counter an anti-tobacco sentiment, they'll be crucified. No politician wants to be the "guy who supports children getting cancer."

 

[pipesmokingtom]

Warren: What you are saying about public smoking bans may be true in some or most places. Not here in Reno. We had an indoor smoking ban in force for about 3 months before local business owners banded together with their financial reports and made a good case to repeal it. I expect we are an exception though, with gambling and alcohol revenues. It's up to the business owner here, but with only 1 exception I know of, you will quickly go out of business here if you don't have video poker machines with an ashtray at each built in to your bartop.
Completely useless information in the grand scheme, but it's nice to live in a place where vices aren't dead and the state recognizes the financial benefit in leaving people the hell alone.

 

[perdurabo]

Warren, I went lunting downtown, people treated me like I was a celebrity. Tons of compliments, how nice it was to see someone smoking a pipe, how refreshing and regal.....etc. I'm actually cool with smoking bans in restaurants and buildings. I don't care to eat smoke. But at the same time it's up to the owner of the establishment, not the local or national government whether or not there is a smoking ban. The FDA grab has nothing to do with bans in bars and the like, it's control, it's Politically Correct, it's pseudo-science flavor of the week, it's anti-freedom, try one freedom at a time until we can get guns etc.,
I Hate the fact that this subject gets caught up in politics, but it's government that has created the atmosphere. It's an anti-freedom ideology that causes a lot of the unrest, it has to be dealt with from a philosophical angle. Not changing minds, but educating minds so they can make a decision. Is this how far we want this to go? Maybe we do. Warren's comments should be taken serious and honestly.

 

[mso489]

Nice thing about pipe smokers is, we're on all sides of politics so we can bitch and fume from all directions. This is good.