What Role Does Briar Play in Quality?

[numbersix]

Thanks for the responses BB, Cigrmaster and hfearly... All appreciated.
I would rather see an artisan at least make mention of the briar being used than to say nothing at all. But your responses make me think that the better artisans do indeed take that into consideration.

 

[puffy]

Does price equate to quality.I doubt that this question will ever have a definite answer.Let me ask it this way.Does a pipe that costs $800 really smoke enough better than a $200 pipe to make it worth the higher price? Do some pipe makers get the extra money for their pipes based just on their name and the fact that some folks just want to say that they have one of their pipes? Is some briar better than other briar? Do some pipe makers have a better way to cure briar than others? I don't have the answers to these questions.In the end money determines when I buy a pipe,and how much I pay for it.Let me end by saying that I have two Dunhills.I love the way they smoke.

 

[salewis]

This whole discussion regarding the "quality" of briar of the volume pipe companies versus the private carvers has appeared in this web site as well as in others sites that I frequent. The simple truth is that the higher the ratings of the manufacture or private pipe carver the higher the average for scoring a better smoking pipe. Is it the quality of the briar, age, curing process or selection techniques? Probably all or most of these are critical. Another, probably the most important consideration is pipe engineering. In summary I believe that the higher the cost of the pipe the greater the chance of having a good smoker due to all or most of the attributes listed above. However, I am sure that many members have the same experience as I have had that some high prices pipes (over $350) smoke considerably worse than other pipes under $100.

 

[flyguy]

Puffy wrote:

Does price equate to quality.I doubt that this question will ever have a definite answer.Let me ask it this way.Does a pipe that costs $800 really smoke enough better than a $200 pipe to make it worth the higher price? Do some pipe makers get the extra money for their pipes based just on their name and the fact that some folks just want to say that they have one of their pipes? Is some briar better than other briar? Do some pipe makers have a better way to cure briar than others? I don't have the answers to these questions.In the end money determines when I buy a pipe,and how much I pay for it...

These are the questions I have. The only thing I really care about is that the pipe smokes well. I'll spend $600 for a pipe if it will give me a $600 smoking experience. I have no interest, at the present time, collecting pipes simply for resale value or prestige. My simple question: "Is the Emperor really wearing clothes?"

If he doesn't, I'll concentrate on buying $40-$200 pipes. Presently, I don't have enough experience or pipe savvy to render a judgment.

 

[pitchfork]

I know of several makers who talk about the supply of briar they have on hand and where they sourced it. David Jones, mentioned above, would be one. Andrew Marks in Vermont would be another. Here, Elliott Nachwalter talks about the individual block of briar from which the pipe was made:

i have been working on this piece for many years. it began as a specimen briar block that i discovered while traveling around italy. after considering shaping the heel of the pipe to reveal the birds eye, i finally decided to leave the natural plateaux.

http://www.pipestudio.com/en107.html
I'm sure there are others as well who talk about their briar source, either on hand, or where they acquire new blocks.

 

[flyguy]

rothnh wrote:

There's certainly good reason to appreciate and own pipes made by this artisan, that one, these three. To each his/her own. One thing I am certain of, my old pipes (except the KW, MM, Dr.G) are hand made from choice pieces of properly cured very old wood and deliver all that I expect and more.

This is why I follow this forum; to learn. I have never smoked pipes of the quality you mention. When I do, I hope to share in the experience. When I complete my cellar, I will turn to the more knowledgeable pipe collectors in this forum for wisdom on which pipes to buy to complete my collection.

 

[cigrmaster]

I can state through experience that not all artisan pipes smoke the same and that some are much better than others. Price does not guarantee you will get a great pipe. Many artisans over charge in my opinion and they produce pipes that are not worth the money again in my opinion. I believe that some artisans charge based on their name and get away with making average pipes for stupid money.
I have smoked artisan pipes from the following.
Rad Davis

Brian Ruthenberg

Bruce Weaver

Mike Butera

Scott Thile

Jody Davis

Steve Morrissete

BST aka Sasquatch

Hans Neilson aka Former

Rainer Barbi

Kurt Balleby

Peter Matzhold

Reiner

Tom Spanu

Viprati ( pretty sure he does all his own work)

Upshall ( Barry Jones is said to do all his own work)
Out of all of these Rad Davis in my opinion makes the best smokers, I buy pipes to smoke, the fact that his blast work is fantastic and he makes some great looking pipes is a bonus. It is why I now own 13 of his pipes with more coming. Every single one smokes great and his pricing is by far the fairest of anyone on my list. The most I have spent on a brand new Rad is 450.00, the least I have spent is 200.00 for an estate. That 200.00 estate Rad smokes as good as the 450.00 brand new pipe, but no where near as good looking. There are pipes on that list that would today retail for 1200.00 plus, back( 2000) when they were new a few retailed for 700- 800.00. I have sold all of my European artisan pipes and only buy No American artisan pipes. To my tastes they are better and the ones I buy are much lower in price. A new Former blasted pipe is over 800.00 in most cases and I don't think they smoke as good as my American artisan pipes.
You can buy great artisan made pipes for 250.00 and under quite often. All of my estate artisan pipes except the Butera and Jody Davis were under the 250.00 price point and the lowest was the Morrissete at 139 delivered. Now of course my tastes may not be yours, what I love in a pipe may not be the same thing you love. Everyone's tastes are so different that people should always buy what they like and not what someone says they should like. I do think that some No American artisans are over priced like the Danes and others, but generally speaking they are priced lower than many artisans from other countries.

 

[foggymountain]

Six: I agree with what you are suggesting. Most briar is not aged and cured properly, even by artisanal carvers. You can tell it in the taste of the smoke. Some pipes, probably Petersons, age on the job. Dunhills are said to be aged at least 60 years before use. That is probably why they break in so fast. I believe that very aged briar is somewhat drier. It breaks in and colors more quickly because it's dried waterpassages are more open. I don't know how Dunhill gets 60 year briar and would appreciate any info. As far as their having discontinued oil curing, I don't think so because the current pipes and those from 60 years ago taste the same. Also I think some of the prices quoted above are too high. I have found a source for Plateau briar for $3-5 a block, probably unaged.

 

[peckinpahhombre]

their is a running joke in Italy that the Americans get the leftovers.

I do think there my be a glint of truth in Old Cajun's wry statement. If someone said I had $200 to spend on a new pipe, there is no question I would choose an italian pipe (such as a Moretti). On average (let me emphasize again: on average), my experience has been that Italian pipes smoke better than non-italian pipes. I think a likely reason for this is the quality of the briar.

 

[pitchfork]

Wow, Harris, you have a lot of experience with a wide range of artisan pipes. Would you care to elaborate further on whose pipes you like best and why? I'm not surprised you list Rad Davis as the best smokers and the best value, but I'd be curious if you could say more about some of the others. The pipe world is a small world and I'm sure you wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but if you could rank a few more in your top 5 or 6, I'm all ears.

 

[bigvan]

I think this is a great conversation. Some of the carvers I've met have told me that they select their blocks from the supplier, some carvers buy from other carvers.
Unlike Harris, I doubt I can pick just one as being a favorite. But I can give you a few.
Jeff Gracik - a master. Expensive, but he's one of the best in the world.

Scott Thile and Joe Nelson - also master class, but not everyone knows it yet.

Abe Herbaugh - rookie of the year.

Andy Peterson - most bang for the buck.

Wayne Teipen and Nate King - based on their work, both are certifiably insane. I honestly think their brains work differently than the rest of ours. Must be something about living in Indiana.
I own pipes from the North American carvers listed below and can recommend any of them.
Abe Herbaugh – Augusta, WV

www.herbaughpipes.com
Adam Remington – Tucson, AZ (relocating soon to Nashville, TN)

www.remingtonpipes.com
Andrew Marks – Cornwall, VT

www.andrewmarkspipemaker.com
Andy Petersen – Davenport, IA

www.quadcitypipes.com
Dr. Bob Keyes – Vermont

www.drbobpipes.com
Bob Oakley – Erie, PA

www.boboakleypipes.com
Bob Swanson – Fort Lauderdale, FL

www.perrywhitepipes.com
Brad Pohlman – Jacksonville, OR

www.pohlmannpipes.com
Brian Ruthenberg – Ft. Gratiot, MI

www.briarart.com
Bruce Weaver – Nashville, TN

www.baweaverpipes.com
Charles Cole – Thayne, WY

www.colepipes.com
Elliot Nachwalter – Arlington, VT

www.pipestudio.com
Eric Heberling – Phoenix, AZ

www.ejhpipes.com
Grant Batson – Nashville, TN

www.gbatsonpipes.com
Jack Howell – Pittsburgh, PA

www. jwh.fastmail.fm
Jeff Gracik – San Diego, CA

www.jalanpipes.com
Jody Davis – Yuma, AZ

www.jodydavispipes.com
Joe Nelson - Fond du Lac, WI

www.oldnelliepipes.com
John Crosby – Indianapolis, IN

www.crosbypipes.com
Larry Roush – Toledo, OH

www.roushpipes.com
Paul Hubbart – Cornwall, England (ex pat American)

www.larryssonpipes.com
Mark Tinsky – Wolf Creek, MT

www.amsmoke.com
Michael Parks - Bowmanville, Ontario

www.parkspipes.com
Rad Davis – Foley, AL

www.raddavispipes.com
Roswitha Anderson – Columbus, OH

www.pipesandpleasures.com
Russ Cook – central MI

www.pipesbyrusscook.com
Ryan Alden – Rowlett, TX

www.aldenpipes.com
Scott Thile – Murray, KY

www.sethilepipes.com
Simeon Turner – Denver, CO

www.turnerpipes.com
Stephen Downie - Surrey, British Columbia

www.downiepipes.com
Thomas James – Pittsburgh, PA

www.thomasjamespipes.com
Todd Johnson – Nashville, TN

www.todd-m-johnson.com

 

[lonestar]

Interesting questions ! A lot of what has been said here is true and false at the same time. So much of it is subjective.

Without naming names, there are highly respected pipe makers who say as soon as a block is dry, it is ready to turn. That may be just one year or less after processing.

Other makers swear it must be aged for 3 years, 10 years, 60 years (usually however old their briar happens to be is whats best :D )

Some makers have one specific briar mill, and everything they use comes from that cutter alone.

Some makers (and some great ones at that) buy a little from several different mills.

Its is tough to say one briar mill is much better than others. There are only a handful of mills left, and most of them have been cutting briar for generations, so they pretty much all know what they are doing.

As far as quality goes, thats really something you pay for. If you buy cheap briar, you get cheap briar. If you spend more money, you get better stuff. How much more you pay, and how much better the briar is, is as subjective as how much better an $800 pipe is than a $200 pipe.

There is no doubt briar from different mills/regions has different properties, but it goes back to being subjective to the end user. What is perfectly suited to your taste/pace/style/body chemistry/blends/climate may not be as perfect for someone else.

I think craftsmanship is as much of the equation as the briar. If either one is lacking, the pipe will not be as good.

I have a good supply of Algerian briar which is what I mainly use. I like it and it seems to be a winner with my customers. I also have Italian briar and some very old Greek briar, and its good stuff too. Whether one or the other is better is subjective in the end.

Briarblues has given some great info. If you buy two pipes from a particular artist and they both let you down, whatever briar or engineering they use is probably not suited for your style. If you're like Harris and every Rad Davis pipe you own just sings, then you have found your go to guy for new pipes. Despite all of the differences between pipemakers, there is generally a consistency with *most* pipes from an individual company/artist.

I want to repeat what Briarblue said about a "Dud" from a particular pipemaker. Most every pipe maker out there (even very high end guys) want to hear from a customer that isnt happy and try to make it right.

So after all of this ,I guess the answer to your question is most artisan pipemakers dont dive into details about briar because its a given they are using the highest quality wood they can source. Most of the guys who mention it do so because theres something outside of the norm about their briar (80 years old, "dead root", oil cured, whatever).

I dont know you numbersix, so I have to ask the question what other brands are you comparing your Dunhill too ?

 

[hfearly]

Bigvan great collection of Artisans. I've been looking for something like this for ages!

 

[pitchfork]

bigvan,
Thanks for that. I'm only surprised that you don't own an Adam Davidson pipe -- another one of those oddball Hoosiers (I'm one, too).
What do you think of Andrew Marks's pipes? He uses some really well aged briar and his shaping is just plain weird and quirky. How do his pipes smoke? I used to live in Vermont, am an avid collector of Nachwalter pipes, and I've long been curious about Marks.

 

[numbersix]

Lonestar - I appreciate your perspective.

I dont know you numbersix, so I have to ask the question what other brands are you comparing your Dunhill too ?

My pipes are still what I consider to be solid, dependable pipes: L'Anatras, Mastro De Paja, Stanwells, Savinelli, a 1930s Hardcastle (a superb smoker btw) and others. All fine smokers IMHO, but definitely not at the level of my Dunhill.
Also, FWIW, my Dunhill is a 2001. I realize some believe the later models are not nearly as good as older models, but from my own experience and especially Foggy Mountain (who owns numerous Dunhills from all eras), Dunhill appears to be still using the tried and true methods. I cannot imagine a pipe being any better than this. It's is extremely lightweight (even tho it's an ODB) - quite possibly the lightest in my collection. The fit and finish is perfect and it offers a cool, dry smoke every time.
Like nsfisher says, if I could, I'd smoke it exclusively. ::
@pitchfork

bigvan, Thanks for that.

+1

 

[mlyvers]

i love my charatans and savinelli pipes. i supose that i have no artisan pipes, this is great info. thanks too you guys for all the information. you guys are great.
mike.

 

[sasquatch]

What is "good briar"?
Good briar from one point of view is briar that smokes good, isn't prone to warping, cracking, etc. On another point of view, we might say that all the briar we buy we would expect to be "good" in that way, and that what we are really saying when we talk about "good" briar is that it has nice grain and isn't full of bugs, cracks, stones, etc.
Can it be this simple?
Here's three blocks from three different suppliers: They happen to be Greek, Spanish, and Italian, clockwise from the top. Perfect crosscut birdseye, and two excellent plateaus.

These blocks don't smoke identically, they have subtle differences in flavor, but they all smoke great, dead dry, and taste fine. If you wanted to do a high contrast finish, you'd probably pick the lightest block because it's going to do that sort of thing better than the darker blocks.
Everything pictured is over ten years old here.
You can see variations in grain density, grain uniformity, color, block density etc. Does one make a better pipe than the other? Arguably not.
Pipe makers buy blocks from certain vendors because they find that they have few failures, don't waste a ton of time on bad pieces, have happy customers over and over again, so these buying loyalties are built up over time. It's not even that one supplier is better in every way, it's that it works for that particular maker in terms of supply ease, value, quality, etc.
I think we get more and better blocks now than ever - there's more demand (more $$) for the nicer looking blocks than there used to be (in 1920 no one cared), and they command a premium. But there's lots of really excellent briar around.
People talking about 100 year old blocks are full of crap - no one stores wood for that long - where's the profit? The plants are around 50 years old when the blocks are cut - the cutters say they are not big enough before that. Asked about "dead root", one cutter told me that his field-men would laugh at him if he asked for that. "Sure there's dead one, but always, ALWAYS they are full of insects and cracks. We pass them by for sure."
Want some nice blocks? They don't, and never did, come any better than this.

Do all my blocks look like this? Hell no.

 

[wcannoy]

I do not expound on the source of my briar publicly because 95% of my customers don't care and the details would just confuse the other 5%.
That said, in my experience, the quality of the briar and curing process accounts for about half of the smoking properties of the pipe. Getting those two holes to line up accounts for the the other half.(Which apparently some people think can be accomplished by a trained monkey... If I had a dollar for every hour spent trying to figure out if a 5/32 draft hole will smoke better than 1/8 or 11/64, or determining the perfect chamber profile for the tobacco to burn down properly, the best airway taper going into the thin profile of the bit, or the optimum amount of flare to the slot at the button end of the stem... I wouldn't need to sell pipes!)
There are exceptions to every rule in this, a process with too many variables to imagine.
Those exceptions aside, a piece of poor quality briar which had been poorly engineered into a pipe will deliver an awful smoking experience. The same poor quality briar with proper engineering will deliver a mediocre to acceptable smoking experience.
A properly cured piece of briar with poor engineering will produce a poor, maybe sometimes mediocre, smoke. A properly cured piece of briar with proper engineering will be a fine smoking pipe.
A properly cured block of briar with average grain, engineered and drilled properly to provide this fine smoking experience is worth maybe $100 before being shaped, sanded, finished and stamped. That's what you're paying for a great tasting pipe. $100.
Want a beautiful straight grain pipe? That block costs $60 to $80 (at least that's what I paid to the cutter in person when hand selecting briar). Of course, in most cases, pipemakers need to eat too, so they have to run a business, not a charity. That $60 block becomes an asset valued at, let's say, just $90 on the extremely low end.
Now the maker, if he is quick and proficient, spends eight hours shaping, cutting a stem, sanding, staining, buffing and waxing to make this chunk of briar look good. Also, lets pay this highly skilled artisan a paltry $10 per hour. Assuming he was also quick and proficient at drilling the briar and stem stock correctly the first time, we'll add an hour for that. So nine hours making this pipe (I've never made one that quick), at $10 per hour is $90, plus the value of the briar at $90, is a $180 pipe. I'll be nice to the pipe buyer and not even consider the cost of shop rent, consumables, electricity, tools and equipment, web hosting, blah blah blah!
Now I have to actualy sell enough pipes to sustain this business, so I have to offer my pipes through retailers. Well, guess what? I need to make at least $180 on the pipe at this point, and the industry standard wholesale rate is 50%. That makes this a $360 pipe at retail now (no matter whose name is on it), plus shipping :roll:, and the maker is still struggling to buy dinner.
The pipe smoking world is full of folks who question the value of artisan pipes in general. In the mean time, pipemakers are living it up in their mansions and polishing the paint on their exotic sports cars... or not. It's not as easy as you think. Most of these guys who have been working hard for years, working slowly and meticulously, to earn a reputation for their work, and can command higher prices for their pipes. Well, you bet your ass that pipe is worth it.

 

[numbersix]

@Sasquatch and @wcannoy
Really good to hear your perspectives.

I do not expound on the source of my briar publicly because 95% of my customers don't care and the details would just confuse the other 5%.

Personally, I don't want to know your exact source, but I would be hesitant to buy from an artisan who makes no mention of the importance of good briar and curing methods (as well as providing an explanation of what they believe qualifies as "good briar" - not all artisans agree on this point).
As you and other makers have stated, it does make a big difference in the quality of the smoke - so why skip over it?
Artisan pipes are very expensive for most pipe smokers, and while I am quite sure pipe makers not living the "lifestyles of the rich and famous", for me to plunk down that much cash, I'd want to be sure I am getting more than just a pretty pipe.
p.s
FWIW I am in marketing by trade. In my business, to sell a product, every positive aspect of that product needs to be sang from the rafters. Even the tiniest attributes need to be mentioned. So if a pipemaker goes out of his or her way to find the very best briar, it's imperative to make a point of it.

 

[wcannoy]

FWIW I am in marketing by trade. In my business, to sell a product, every positive aspect of that product needs to be sang from the rafters. Even the tiniest attributes need to be mentioned.

That's part of the problem. There have been so many briar myths perpetuated by manufacturers, artisans, and collectors, nothing holds water anymore. If I say I get my briar from Greece, some people will see it as a positive, some will see it as a negative. The same if I say that I oil cure my briar.
I can say that I go out of my way to find the very best briar and it might be true, it might not, but I know if I hear that again from another maker, I think I'll puke!