What Is The Health Concern Over Deertongue?

[litup]

In an email from Pipes & Cigars, I read about them bringing back a Hearth & Home blend called Old Tartan but, according to Russ, this version has had the deertongue replaced by a "product that is identical in aroma and flavor with the component that causes concern." I'm in the dark about this one and Google didn't help much. Anyone know what the concern is with deertongue in a blend?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Deertongue contains coumarins, chemicals that may thin the blood and cause liver damage.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-221/deertongue

 

[cortezattic]

One of this site's ex-mods smoked deertongue and his pee-pee fell off.

 

[mso489]

That's what the crooner is crooning about. (For anyone who doesn't know, Crooner is a blend with deer tongue.)

 

[jaytex1969]

The deer can't bleat to find a mate after their tongues are removed. The animal rights groups have moved to ban the practice of tongue harvesting.
Many of us have joined the movement to replace deer tongue with senator tongue. It tastes like shit actually, but the accompanying silence from C-SPAN is worth the sacrifice.

 

[nunnster]

How deep do you want to go to answer this question? The quick simple answer is that the active ingredient (coumarins) acts as a blood thinner and at times has found to be hemeatoxic (blood toxic, I'm a terrible speller) with concern that it also can damage the kidneys and liver. It is also a precursor to pharmaceuticals such as warfarin as well as rat poison.
However, this chemical is found in a large range of spice's and foods that have been know as safe for human consumption for eons. The reason why the FDA doesnt like it is becuase there has been a few studies in rats/mice that shows it can be lethal/toxic. But further analysis of those studies shows that rodents metabolize and produce harmful metabolites that humans do not. This is why the EU changed their stance on deertouge and other items that contain this molecule a while ago. Personally, in the doses found naturally via edibles like cinnamon or those found in a blend of tobacco I believe to be completely harmless and the fear overblown. From what I read taking an asprin has more of a blood thinning effect than a small amount of the stuff. But to each his own. As always I would suggest reading up on it yourself and make an informed choice about what you put into your body.
As a fun fact, coumarin is actually one of the molecules that I've isolated in a lab. But take that with a grain of salt.

 

[litup]

Thanks, nunnster. I appreciate the detailed reply. If a person is otherwise healthy, it doesn't seem like the thinning of their blood would be all that dangerous. I assume that the effect would temporary anyway?

 

[Chasing Embers]

It'll just have to kill me, I love the stuff.

 

[nunnster]

I'm not a doctor nor a biochemist (although I could understand both well enough to get by) and I wont give out medical advice, but to answer your question in my opinion I believe it to be relivily harmless, or atleast, when compared to the already health risks associated with smoking tobacco. The only time I would be careful personally is if I was taking some sort of medication that may have interactions. But, like I said, lots of people enjoy it without incident and have done so for a long time, but I always will recommend looking into the subject yourself before you go out and try something new if you are concerned. I just like to give out a small does of my personal knowledge as a jumping off point

 

[cosmicfolklore]

On my post above from webmd was just my initial google to find the health effects of deertongue to help the OP. But, the article doesn't even take smoking it into account, much less smoking it in a pipe where you don't inhale it.

The aroma of deertongue smells very "pipe-y" for lack of a better word. But, while a little like vanilla, it's not exactly a vanilla flavoring. It's very unique, and worth a try. But, I can't smoke it as a practice because it is just too strong a flavor and a little harsh at times.
I can see where if Native Americans were mixing it with their tobacco when they introduced white colonists to tobacco, that white smokers would be compelled to try different flavorings like vanilla and berries (which were being mixed into blends by Native Americans as well).
Curiosity and historical reasons are good enough to give it a try, but you'd really have to like that... taste to want to smoke it often, IMO.

 

[mso489]

nunnster, good write-up. Who knows what you have when you burn flavorings, even those that are familiar and sound fine?

 

[nunnster]

@mso, well the thing about that is, with most things we understand what and how molecules decompose, what they decompose into and the temperature at which that happens. I would have to dig a bit deeper into it, but as far as I know, most flavor molecules would decompose at much higher temps than what we achieve in a pipe, and if one was to achieve those temps inside a pipe, it would no longer taste good and be beyond smokeable. It would produce acidic arid, and bitter fowl tasting compounds. and while I cant find the litature (pub chem doesnt list its decomp temp and I dont feel like looking thru my texts and databases for a forum post) I'm fairly certain there is no danger in that regard. But the concern is valid, but not for why you might think. Lots of times when things get studied they do so either by injection or ingestion, and the way ones body behaves to inhaling those things could be totally different.
Case and point, diacetyl. It's the flavor molecule that gives artificial butter (in popcorn and the like) it a buttery flavor. It's fine to eat, but inhaling it in large quantities will give you "pop corn lung". Its the chemical that has given vaping a bad rap (although all reputable US based ecig/ejuice companies removed this particular chemical from their products well over 8 years ago). Not saying all things are safe by any means. But a little research goes a long way. I'm willing to take "risks" with pipe tobacco and flavorings, and other things becuase I understand what those risks are, and I think alot of people are overly concerned about things becuase they dont fully understand them and they trust what big brother tells them and take it as absolute fact.

 

[elessar]

jaytex, senator tongue well played. Laughed my ass off!

 

[prairiedruid]

Crooner is based on a blend that Bing Crosby smoked and he died of a heart attack after playing 18 holes of golf. I love Crooner so I'll avoid playing golf.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Same issues with Tonquin as with deer tongue, I.e., supposed harmful effects of coumarin. On one of the Brit forums a few years back, the suggestion was made that no tobacco manufacturer used Tonquin flavoring that was really derived from the bean any more, but used synthetic flavoring that sounds like what Russ O was talking about as quoted by the original poster. My recollection is that the point was disputed but not settled.

 

[anantaandroscoggin]

My impression is that unless one inhales regularly, the exposure to anything harmful in Deertongue is a whole lot less than it would be if one made a tea from it (!?!?!?) or chewed it.
And there are many different burning temperatures applicable, as there are many compounds in just about everything organic. Someone would have to do an actual study to determine what is in the smoke from Deertongue and what's left in the bowl before vs. after it is smoked.
I suspect that as a component of a pipe tobacco blend, the dosage per bowl is miniscule, just slightly higher than a homeopathic "medicine".