What is it About Italians?

[OSOBUCO]

This thread has really turned into a food discussion - LOL. Somehow whenever I am with friends the topic always seems to gravitate to food these days. Food, wine music - universal languages!

 

[OSOBUCO]

I love Italy, especially their people (Sofia ?) and food (a good Risotto Milanaise or Carbonara *drool* and Ossobuco *more drool*, Pizza they can keep), but their cars not so much. Maybe the saddest example was a neighbour who had a Alfa 147 (ok, it is a sad excuse for a car anyway, even it being Italian) which stood more in the garage than on the driveway. Before that he had an old Volvo, that car was build like a tank but he parted with because he wanted Italian design..... True Italian sportscars like Ferrari or Pagani are beautiful, Lamborghini sold his soul to german engineering which improved reliability greatly but made their cars a bit soulless.

Pizza was perfected in the USA and the best I ever had was on a business trip at Red's Savoy Pizza in St Paul, MN - better than anything that has come out of NYC, Chicago or any other locale in the US. OK - sorry if I offended any windy city or NYC tastebuds! ;-).

 

[cosmicfolklore]

In my opinion (It has to be an opinion as Indian food is very vast and diverse) -

While some Indian foods will pack a little heat - Good / Exceptional Indian food was never hot at all.

So how did we get here?

1. Indian food (Specially the poor) used a lot of pepper to cover up for bad ingredients historically
2. Pepper was also used to cover up for bad cooking
3. The culture of eating out by the middle class in restaurants is fairly recent (100 - 120 years or so)
4. The cooks that emigrated out of India - They were not the best cooks. They were just ordinary people looking for a better life elsewhere- So they carried on their tradition of hiding bad cooking by making it spicy
5. While home cooked meals are simple, it is still a lost art. With every generation the cooking skills are going down
6. The Indian cooking the world is most familiar with- They originated from the kitchen of Kings and large landowners. They had army of cooks who used to work full time, making dishes which were extremely labor intensive and took a long time to cook. These foods when adapted to a restaurant format, lost a lot of quality.
7. As an example- Biriyani is an Indian food most is familiar with. Even an average biriyani takes more than an hour to cook, and really succulent biryani should take 4-5 hours. In India you get specialized biriyani restaurants who cooks them in fixed portions and in batches, so it is still delightful but in a general purpose restaurant where it is cooked in 15 minutes from partially prepared ingredients, it takes a lot of talent to make it equally good. Untalented cooks will just use pepper to make it better
8. Food is never static - It always evolves with global cultural influence. Just that Indian food evolved to be spicy ?

To summarize- Indian food became spicy as the cooks who emigrated used heat to cover up for bad cooking

I know. I was being stereotypical…. Besides, are there any Indian made factory pipes? I imagine they’d be twisted into strange shapes.
Back when my wife made me take yoga, we joined the Hindu community center, or Universalist Center, or whatever it’s called. We took yoga from a real yogi who brought in monks to share their adventures and stuff. Was very cool.
I took a cooking class, but the woman who led it, let’s just say, I did a lot of nodding and wagging my head like I understood her, wonderful lady. We made much better food than the restaurants served. I still hang out with the gardening instructor. He tells me what each vegetable cures amd shows off some interesting and tasty varieties from India he grows, and I try to explain our climate here and how “we” garden. We actually have mangoes growing in Alabama.
As I said, I love all things Indian, just maybe not their restaurants. But, we still go occasionally. Love me some fresh naan…. And sometimes it’s nice just to flush my system, ha ha.

 

[cshubhra]

…. Besides, are there any Indian made factory pipes? I

Not that I know of ? Pipe smoking in India was a British influence and mostly for educated / upper middle class or elites. Dunhills etc… were the norm.

 

[cshubhra]

This thread has really turned into a food discussion - LOL. Somehow whenever I am with friends the topic always seems to gravitate to food these days. Food, wine music - universal languages!

I realized that only thing Italian in my are my Savinelli pipes. My wife wants an Italian car, but so far I have resisted, as I am sure it will take a lot of my time, money or both.

They do look cool though ? Coming back from a family vacation, we parked in a rest area in Maryland at midnight, and a Maserati Levante parked just opposite to us - Same color, same size but I was bowled over by the looks.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Not many countries can vie for top manufacturing of espresso machines!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Not that I know of ? Pipe smoking in India was a British influence and mostly for educated / upper middle class or elites. Dunhills etc… were the norm.

Ok, funny story... Mrs. Cosmic and I had just merged our stores, separated by an arched doorway I installed, so that we could talk to each other all day as we worked. We moved bought two houses next door to each other, and we had only been dating a couple of years. We do these yoga classes at that center. She has a lot of anxiety she is trying to get rid of at these yoga classes, which are in this beautiful temple with cool statues, incense burning. Meanwhile there are all of these kids running around and playing between us, running around being loud, poking us and making weird faces, trying to make us laugh. I laugh, smile, but Mrs Cosmic to be is not a kid person. I can tell she is getting annoyed, but that incites the kids further. We are in savasana, trying to relax into that pose... six little girls surround Mrs Cos, and she breaks a gasket, "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME!!!" rings throughout that large temple, down all of the halls, echoes off the roof into the surrounding neighborhoods.

I just knew that they were going to ask us to leave. All of the other non-Indian yoga people are looking at us, like they want to lynch us right there, ha ha. But, no one says anything.

Now, our stores are very quiet, usually with some quiet music playing, women come to her shop to make beaded jewelry in peace and quiet, usually whispered conversation and such. Mine is a jewelry store, with displays, and a gallery like setting, lots of glass cases.

To apologize to us for their naughty little kids, all of the mothers at the Indian Center bring their kids into our stores. We are talking 50 fucking kids, 4 to 12 years of age, all talking enthusiastically, pushing shoving playing games, making faces, putting sticky fingers on glass, slobbering on displays, ha ha. I kid you not. They showed up like a caravan of soccer mom vans. They made each kid line up and apologize to Mrs Cos, and as they finished apologizing, they ran off to break things and push over displays, ha ha. it was heartfelt, but in practice, after they left, we had to close and wipe everything down, reset displays, and polish back up the glass cases, ha ha.

Now, the kids are all getting married... and, I have come to serve their community making a lot of high karat gold wedding and ceremonial pieces as those kids have grown up and paired up. But, every now and then we will see a 20something Indian in the market, and they look at Mrs Cosmic and wink, and say, "get the fuck out." Ha ha.

Her punishment for cussing those kids was to endure their apologies, ha ha.

 

[OSOBUCO]

To apologize to us for their naughty little kids, all of the mothers at the Indian Center bring their kids into our stores. We are talking 50 fucking kids, 4 to 12 years of age, all talking enthusiastically, pushing shoving playing games, making faces, putting sticky fingers on glass, slobbering on displays, ha ha. I kid you not. They showed up like a caravan of soccer mom vans. They made each kid line up and apologize to Mrs Cos, and as they finished apologizing, they ran off to break things and push over displays, ha ha. it was heartfelt, but in practice, after they left, we had to close and wipe everything down, reset displays, and polish back up the glass cases, ha ha.

Well... good for the moms making those kids apologize. If it were a bunch of pampered american snowflakes Mrs Cos would have likely been sued for cursing and damaging their sensitive little feelings. Kudos to the Indian moms for teaching their kids respect and a lesson

 

[beef]

Italians do a lot of things right, but on the other hand, Italian chocolate.

Italian chocolate is great. Turin is one of the chocolate capitals of the world.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Well... good for the moms making those kids apologize. If it were a bunch of pampered american snowflakes Mrs Cos would have likely been sued for cursing and damaging their sensitive little feelings. Kudos to the Indian moms for teaching their kids respect and a lesson

I don’t know. These were American kids, but I know what you mean. I tell white kids to fuck off all the time, but I haven’t been sued yet. If you could sue for being told to fuck off, the courts would be lined up for miles.

 

[OSOBUCO]

I don’t know. These were American kids, but I know what you mean. I tell white kids to fuck off all the time, but I haven’t been sued yet. If you could sue for being told to fuck off, the courts would be lined up for miles.

Indeed but you live in Alabama. Do that in some other states/areas and it can be a different story. I can name some but I don't want to offend - peace cosmic

 

[captainsousie]

@cosmicfolklore @captainsousie

In my opinion (It has to be an opinion as Indian food is very vast and diverse) -

While some Indian foods will pack a little heat - Good / Exceptional Indian food was never hot at all.

So how did we get here?

1. Indian food (Specially the poor) used a lot of pepper to cover up for bad ingredients historically
2. Pepper was also used to cover up for bad cooking
3. The culture of eating out by the middle class in restaurants is fairly recent (100 - 120 years or so)
4. The cooks that emigrated out of India - They were not the best cooks. They were just ordinary people looking for a better life elsewhere- So they carried on their tradition of hiding bad cooking by making it spicy
5. While home cooked meals are simple, it is still a lost art. With every generation the cooking skills are going down
6. The Indian cooking the world is most familiar with- They originated from the kitchen of Kings and large landowners. They had army of cooks who used to work full time, making dishes which were extremely labor intensive and took a long time to cook. These foods when adapted to a restaurant format, lost a lot of quality.
7. As an example- Biriyani is an Indian food most is familiar with. Even an average biriyani takes more than an hour to cook, and really succulent biryani should take 4-5 hours. In India you get specialized biriyani restaurants who cooks them in fixed portions and in batches, so it is still delightful but in a general purpose restaurant where it is cooked in 15 minutes from partially prepared ingredients, it takes a lot of talent to make it equally good. Untalented cooks will just use pepper to make it better
8. Food is never static - It always evolves with global cultural influence. Just that Indian food evolved to be spicy ?

To summarize- Indian food became spicy as the cooks who emigrated used heat to cover up for bad cooking

I largely agree with this assessment.

 

[karam]

@cosmicfolklore @captainsousie

In my opinion (It has to be an opinion as Indian food is very vast and diverse) -

While some Indian foods will pack a little heat - Good / Exceptional Indian food was never hot at all.

So how did we get here?

1. Indian food (Specially the poor) used a lot of pepper to cover up for bad ingredients historically
2. Pepper was also used to cover up for bad cooking
3. The culture of eating out by the middle class in restaurants is fairly recent (100 - 120 years or so)
4. The cooks that emigrated out of India - They were not the best cooks. They were just ordinary people looking for a better life elsewhere- So they carried on their tradition of hiding bad cooking by making it spicy
5. While home cooked meals are simple, it is still a lost art. With every generation the cooking skills are going down
6. The Indian cooking the world is most familiar with- They originated from the kitchen of Kings and large landowners. They had army of cooks who used to work full time, making dishes which were extremely labor intensive and took a long time to cook. These foods when adapted to a restaurant format, lost a lot of quality.
7. As an example- Biriyani is an Indian food most is familiar with. Even an average biriyani takes more than an hour to cook, and really succulent biryani should take 4-5 hours. In India you get specialized biriyani restaurants who cooks them in fixed portions and in batches, so it is still delightful but in a general purpose restaurant where it is cooked in 15 minutes from partially prepared ingredients, it takes a lot of talent to make it equally good. Untalented cooks will just use pepper to make it better
8. Food is never static - It always evolves with global cultural influence. Just that Indian food evolved to be spicy ?

To summarize- Indian food became spicy as the cooks who emigrated used heat to cover up for bad cooking

Love this writeup!

Clueless Greeks think that unless Indian cuisine is hot enough to burn a hole through you, then through the floor, and all the way to China, it is not authentic.

I clearly recall a meal in an extremely highly regarded Indian restaurant in Manchester (it was 10 years ago but can still taste it, it was that good, but can't for the life of me remember the name of the place), and also an event where my old boss treated the whole company to an Indian meal cooked by a famous chef and his team (old boss is somewhat of an expert and connoisseur in Indian cuisine, even though he's English), the common ground between both of these stunning culinary experiences was that the food had some heat, but the star of the show was the very delicate and complex interplay of the spices used.

 

[mingc]

While some Indian foods will pack a little heat - Good / Exceptional Indian food was never hot at all.

Hot & spicy are relative. What you consider bland, there will certainly be others who will consider it too hot to eat. I suspect Indian food had always been relatively hot and spicy just because spices were readily available and that's what people had a taste for. How do you think they'd react if you serve them steamed broccoli or green beans American style? Bleah! I knew American kids hated vegetables but never knew why until I came here. I also hate "Asian food" cooked by hippies because they always make them so bland and boring by under-flavoring them. I mean I know people who complain that a slice of ginger in chai makes it too spicy. On the other hand, there are certainly countries whose cuisines are hotter than India's, like Sri Lanka, Thailand, Laos.

5. While home cooked meals are simple, it is still a lost art. With every generation the cooking skills are going down

I find that hard to believe because I don't know why that would be true. Yes, recipes can be lost, but new ones can be invented. In any event, there's no way to prove that statement one way or the other.

8. Food is never static - It always evolves with global cultural influence. Just that Indian food evolved to be spicy ?

Absolutely true. Tastes also change.

 

[cshubhra]

Hot & spicy are relative. What you consider bland, there will certainly be others who will consider it too hot to eat. I suspect Indian food had always been relatively hot and spicy just because spices were readily available and that's what people had a taste for. How do you think they'd react if you serve them steamed broccoli or green beans American style? Bleah! I knew American kids hated vegetables but never knew why until I came here. I also hate "Asian food" cooked by hippies because they always make them so bland and boring by under-flavoring them. I mean I know people who complain that a slice of ginger in chai makes it too spicy. On the other hand, there are certainly countries whose cuisines are hotter than India's, like Sri Lanka, Thailand, Laos.


I find that hard to believe because I don't know why that would be true. Yes, recipes can be lost, but new ones can be invented. In any event, there's no way to prove that statement one way or the other.


Absolutely true. Tastes also change.

1. Absence of heat does not mean bland. There are a lot of dishes with judicious use of non-hot spices to make them flavorful without the heat
2. Simple means simple ingredients does not equate to low effort … Nowadays people do not want to spend that much amount of effort, so the cuisine is changing. Of course as you said that cannot be proved/disproved

 

[hauntedmyst]

Pizza was perfected in the USA and the best I ever had was on a business trip at Red's Savoy Pizza in St Paul, MN - better than anything that has come out of NYC, Chicago or any other locale in the US. OK - sorry if I offended any windy city or NYC tastebuds! ;-).

Not offended since everyone has a right to be wrong but concerned about how over the top horribly wrong you are and can’t help but wonder if you hit your head and need medical attention!

 

[mortonbriar]

Concerning pizza, I just heard an interview last week with the author of this book:
modernist pizza
A fascinating and diverse history!

 

[jaygreen55]

I love Italy, especially their people (Sofia ?) and food (a good Risotto Milanaise or Carbonara *drool* and Ossobuco *more drool*, Pizza they can keep), but their cars not so much. Maybe the saddest example was a neighbour who had a Alfa 147 (ok, it is a sad excuse for a car anyway, even it being Italian) which stood more in the garage than on the driveway. Before that he had an old Volvo, that car was build like a tank but he parted with because he wanted Italian design..... True Italian sportscars like Ferrari or Pagani are beautiful, Lamborghini sold his soul to german engineering which improved reliability greatly but made their cars a bit soulless.

You know what FIAT stands for?
F ix It Again Tony

 

[Alejo R.]

I love Italy, especially their people (Sofia ?) and food (a good Risotto Milanaise or Carbonara *drool* and Ossobuco *more drool*, Pizza they can keep), but their cars not so much. Maybe the saddest example was a neighbour who had a Alfa 147 (ok, it is a sad excuse for a car anyway, even it being Italian) which stood more in the garage than on the driveway. Before that he had an old Volvo, that car was build like a tank but he parted with because he wanted Italian design..... True Italian sportscars like Ferrari or Pagani are beautiful, Lamborghini sold his soul to german engineering which improved reliability greatly but made their cars a bit soulless.

Horacio Pagani is from Argentina.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Thank you.

This thread died some time ago, and never received a proper burial. Done.