Warhorse Bar

[misterlowercase]

My mentor,

my yoda,

my santō-kyōshi,

my seminal inspiration,

the venerable and rightfully exalted Rusty of CPS,

of whose Church I do so belong,

as a devoted disciple,

has said this,

in condensed excerpt form reproduced and quoted here,

and I think,

verily,

that I must agree with him.

OK I have some questions ...
Is STP (Stolen Tobacco Products) an evolution of El Crappo Tobacco Unlimited?
I doubt that fidelity to the originals matters very much. Most smokers today just want the label to look right and they weren't there to smoke the old ones. Presbyterian Mixture is one pertinent example; it's not even in the same ballpark. They're babes in the woods but a good retro label goes a long way with today's enamel-deep-truth (EDT) sensitive bunch.
...
There are certainly folks that have experience with the blends. Most are old. Other than War Horse, which I didn't smoke, I smoked the rest. Bengal Slices I smoked in at least three distinct incarnations. I think I still have tins of the last one (A&C Pete). JC I only enjoyed the Gallaher versions. Old tins may be useful for leaf proportions in mixtures in absence of any recipe and process sheets but it's not useful for flavour. I think without the original manufacturing process sheets it's a completely new blend. It's not the same product and in general they're not reproducible.

So what does STP stand for if it's not Stolen Tobacco Products?
...
Your friends at El Crappo registered a TM in Dec 2014 and it was published for opposition in April 2015. All of this is well documented. So we know how they got it. It was again an abandoned TM. ...

Pirates all.

Standard Tobacco Pirates.

LOL!

:lol:

::

 

[warren]

I've read all, or most, of the opinions expressed on the forum regarding "War Horse". I'll reserve judgement until I try both. That's the only test that matters to me. I will say that I am a bit interested as to whose tastes most closely mirror mine as a reference point. A minor point at that as I'm not much of a follower. More a different drummer type I suppose.
The historical perspective is certainly entertaining but, I'm really only interested in the now. What a blend tasted like in the distant past is of no interest. It's fun to read the ruminations of the past. But, these ruminations are only that and carry no weight for me as to what I want today.

 

[misterlowercase]

The historical perspective is certainly entertaining but, I'm really only interested in the now. What a blend tasted like in the distant past is of no interest. It's fun to read the ruminations of the past. But, these ruminations are only that and carry no weight for me as to what I want today.

Warren,

I agree completely.
The NOW is what matters.
War Horse is a ghost from the past.
So why even try to conjure its hallowed name in a post-info hypermodern world?
Why not just name the blend something else?
Cashing in on ancient history is nothing new though,

and I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more else remotely resembling principled integrity

from those who wish to exploit the venerated past for their own egomaniacal or financial benefits.
:crying:

 

[tobyducote]

Great write ups..livery interesting. Can't wait to try the new release

 

[sablebrush52]

These villains! These pirates! These monsters! Spending all their money on analyses and materials to produce an arcane blend that a marginal segment of a marginal segment of a marginalized market MIGHT buy! What genius! They're definitely in for the big bux!
Judgements made off of ancient tobaccos are guesses at best. No varietal is immune to fading. And any mixture, blend, whatever that has dried out has lost flavors which rehydration won't revive. As for having the process and formula being the end all, be all, even that isn't going to be enough. Germaine's has that for Balkan Sobranie and as someone who smoked quite a bit of it in the '70's and '80's, I can tell you that they missed the target. It takes a palate, and Russ has one. His WhiteKnight is closer, and I'd lay odds that the recipe is different, but adjusted to taste correct.
This Warhorse is the ready rubbed and these greedy pirates have said that it's going to be milder than the bar. They've said this many, many times. So wait for the bar before making judgements.

 

[misterlowercase]

:wink:

Well said Jesse,

very well said.
Defenders of The Faith unite!
::

 

[misterlowercase]

It takes a palate...

...or a pirate.

 

[fishingandpipes]

So when's the new version hit the market?

 

[misterlowercase]

If wishes were horses,

beggars would ride,
If turnips were watches,

I'd wear one by my side,
If,
Ifs and Ands

were pots and pans,

there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

Look guys,

I know I'm being a bit overly persistent on this,

but all I'm asking is,

geez really?
Just call it something besides War Horse because it certainly ain't not no War Horse.
It is a new blend, yes?

Why not a new name too?
A perfect case study to correlate this all would be looking at Gregory Pease's JackKnife Plug.
JKP was an innovation.

A first, a milestone in contemporary American tobacco blending because nobody had yet tried their hands at trying to tackle the genre of Irish-style plugs,

meaning Va.+ Burley + whatever else, but with a smooth natural profile, and carrying a bootyfull of nicotine which is true to the form.
I know for a fact that during the development stages of JKP, Pease studied the classics, or what is left of them, the STG-made plugs, stuff like Murray's Warrior and all the others, some of them were sent to him via gentleman extraordinaire, Jimbo from North Yorkshire.
GLP was very successful in capturing the traditional traits associated with those plugs,

yet making something new in the process,

making it his own,

making it made,

and individualized as such.
He made it,

and it is his

and his only.
He could have easily tried to take a shortcut in the marketing department by trolling through ye olde losttime brandnames and trying to claim some sort of authenticized familial connection,

like maybe he would have found the old HammerHead Plug to be a suitable moniker...

...but he didn't,

he called it JackKnife Plug,

placing it within the New World Collection,

and that is so fitting,

for indeed,

it is a New World blend,

yet looking to tradition, with a serious and solemn respect, and building upon it, standing on shoulders of many celebrated Tobacco Houses from Yore Pipelore, acknowledging not with some hollow brand name, but acknowledging them all with the character of the tobacco itself.
For that,

I am eternally grateful.
JKP was my introduction to plugs and initiated a deep love for the form,

it holds a special place in my heart,

proudly tattooed of its own name,

JackKnife Plug,

and although it may have been inspired by baccies of the past,

it is very very much of itself,

and I greatly greatly respect that.

::

 

[prairiedruid]

Hmmm seems we're putting the cart before the horse a bit. They're still fine tuning the process of making the plug so the final result and how close it is to the original is not known. I'm just a novice pipe smoker but am eager to try what they eventually will arrive at. Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 is a classic but different conductors/orchestras sound different even though they are using the exact same music; however it's still called Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. Let's wait and see what Russ the maestro creates as the final product.

 

[brian64]

My two cents...as simply an "average" pipe smoker who never experienced any of these legendary blends of the past. My thought is simply this: my perceptions of War Horse are based only on reviews and commentary I've read here...therefore my expectation regarding the resurrected War Horse is that it will be something truly unusual...and certainly a "strong" blend. Also that it will bare at least some reasonable resemblance to the descriptions of the taste of the original. I will no doubt be among those who purchase a bar or two initially in order to try it for myself. But if it doesn't really grab me as being something special, I will not continue to purchase it just for the packaging.

 

[warren]

Some guys get together, gain legal ownership of a marque, develop a blend and use that marque as the trade name. I fail to see what is so egregious about their actions that it would upset you. Further, I fail to see how the use of the name could diminish the original product as it no longer exists. I sense that there is more to this than simply the name of the product.
The folks who took the risk are really the only people who need to be concerned with the marketing. The rest of us can either like the product or not. I sincerely hope they are wildly successful with their venture So successful that the three have to write many large annual checks to the IRS, year after year. And, that this checks are mailed from a nice beach houses in the Caribbean. Better yet! A crewman has to row the check into Monaco to be posted!
edit: This thread is entertaining and, in certain respects, very enlightening.

 

[misterlowercase]

I sense that there is more to this than simply the name of the product.

It really is all about the name.
Only in the case of the Ready Rubbed though,

I have no problems with a plug called War Horse and there are certain aspects of it existing again that thrill me, excite me, and also invigorate me because the name has been recognized for having a crucial value.
I just don't think that name should be given to the Ready Rubbed,

that's all.
The brandname does indeed belong to, and is owned by, STP, and they can use it in any manner they so see fit,

I have just been offering my opinionated feedback, and as such,

I am only just one potential customer, and I'm probably in the minority

(as to the reception of the R/R),

the marginal margins,

ghost wrote so noting my mind.
The R/R has been generally well received and I myself do agree that it's a tasty blend,

but not just anything like what a War Horse replica should be,

and that's just my opinion, of course.
I do look forward to the appearance of its true form in that of a Bar,

and I'd be highly excited to empty my wallet if perchance it was contracted out to STG in Denmark

to be made under STP specification - STG does a very fine job with all the BAT/Imperial brands and I love their stuff.
::

 

[sablebrush52]

Some guys get together, gain legal ownership of a marque, develop a blend and use that marque as the trade name. I fail to see what is so egregious about their actions that it would upset you.

Also keep in mind that they have made strenuous efforts, at no little expense, to analyze the former product in an effort to produce a faithful recreation of it. What they have are samples from particular batches from particular years, which have been preserved under unknown circumstances. And the people who have had the opportunity to try the original have sampled from a particular batch, from a particular year, which has been preserved under unknown circumstances. Everything varies from year to year and from batch to batch. If the result is in the ballpark, they did good.
Which reminds me of a story.
Many years ago I was painting matte paintings for a film entitled Something Wicked This Way Comes, based on the story by Ray Bradbury. For those of you not familiar with the term, a matte painting is a painting that looks real when photographed and which is used in films to create environments that can't be shot on location or are too expensive to build on a stage. I was painting exteriors set in the Autumn countryside, lots of brilliant reds, yellows, and golds in the trees. The location plates that we had shot in Vermont, to which I was adding painted elements, had been shot on Eastman 5247, a standard film negative of the period.
5247 was an excellent general purpose film stock, but it was known to have a slightly weak response to greens. This wasn't going to be a problem since the countryside was fall colors. In the middle of post production we ran out of the batch and I was obliged to continue with a new batch. To my horror, the color response was completely different. The reds, yellows, and golds were coming out flat and desaturated on the film, and the greens, which I had pushed to get green on the film, were absolutely screaming. Turns out that Kodak had slightly adjusted the formula as a response to complaints about 5247's capture of greens, and as a consequence I was obliged to rebalance the paintings to get the colors to look correct. Same emulsion number, same manufacturer, same year, different batch. And the color response varied from the beginning of the batch to the end of the batch. So there was variation within the same batch.
The point is that a sample doesn't tell the whole story. Even a number of batches will only tell part of the story. Balkan Sobrainie is known to have varied considerably throughout its years of production, even with the same manufacturer.

And that's why getting the recreation in the ballpark is good. Getting a recreation "exact" is meaningless, Exact to what? The target is variable at best.

 

[misterlowercase]

Also keep in mind that they have made strenuous efforts, at no little expense, to analyze the former product in an effort to produce a faithful recreation of it. What they have are samples from particular batches from particular years, which have been preserved under unknown circumstances. And the people who have had the opportunity to try the original have sampled from a particular batch, from a particular year, which has been preserved under unknown circumstances. Everything varies from year to year and from batch to batch. If the result is in the ballpark, they did good.

All that's a given,

Sable.
I applaud their sticktoitiveness and how they actually made something happen,

that in and of itself is certainly no small feat, requires dedication,

and takes massive man-hours to accomplish.
They forged an entirely new entity, with the noble goal of bringing back the good stuff.
And they are actively and diligently trying to make it all happen.
But the ballpark for War Horse is a traditional Irish plug, not a ready rubbed - it's like playing on the wrong field.
I don't expect an exact match as I know that would simply be impossible,

I'm all for the ballpark,

gung-ho for it in fact,

if it's in the proper ballpark.
:
:
As to another discussion implying that the R/R may have been cigarette baccy sold as loose,

I just don't buy that argument, and I simply just don't see the justification for a R/R

especially if the R/R precedes the Plug,

it's usually the other way around,

in order to be rubbed,

it must exist in a more solid form beforehand.
Scant evidence remains of the War Horse ciggies, really only that one showcard found in the NMNI collection,

I don't have enough old trade publications to go indepth, but from the copies that I have which list brand indexes (1921,1927,1931) none of them list the WH cigs, although they do list the Bar and Ready Cut.
I just find it to be disingenuous to release a R/R version called War Horse.
As far as I know, and I admit it ain't much, the cigs were around from around at least 1905 until sometime in the 1930's, and then they disappeared off the Gallaher horizon unlike the plug and cut which remained in production almost to the very end,

and when I think of War Horse, I think of the classic bar anyways.
This is the earliest image for the ciggies I've found,

the UK National Archives lists its date at 1905...

And oddly,

while looking,

I came across a Vietnamese brand of ciggies called War Horse!

:P

 

[sablebrush52]

But the ballpark for War Horse is a traditional Irish plug, not a ready rubbed - it's like playing on the wrong field.

Then let's not forget that they are working on that plug, intend to make it, test it, and release it, and let's see what they come up with.

 

[crusader]

So....... When will it be available again?

 

[woodsroad]

The ETA as of now is December 1st. Subject to change, but it's looking Lord willing and the creek don't rise.

 

[misterlowercase]

So....... When will it be available again?

If you are talking about Gallaher's War Horse Bar,

it will never be available again.
::

 

[deathmetal]

Just call it something besides War Horse because it certainly ain't not no War Horse.

Exactly. Don't trade on the name without delivering. That's a common complaint here regarding new versions of old blends.
I admire this group for what they are doing, but simply doing work in this world does not mean much. You have to do it right. Doing it right includes respecting legacies.
This is my suggestion to them: do not adulterate the brand value of an older name with a substitute that does not deliver what the older item was known for. To do so is the height of idiocy.
I see they have some defenders here though. My warning to you is that if you defend and tolerate idiocy, you will get more of it... a gradual slide. Think of me in ten years when that makes sense to you.