Virginia Kentucky Flake

[F4RM3R]

60% red virginia
40% dark fired kentucky

Pressed the leaf in alternate layers. Overnight in the noodle press. Wrapped in tin foil this morning and put in the oven at around 200°C for about 3-4 hours. I tried a bowl this morning unstoved and it was nice, I'll see what the stoving has done maybe tonight.

I've been doing some simpler Virginia Kentucky blends, seeing what I can do with just the two leaves. Various stoving and casing topping. Decided to take the simple theme a bit further and press then stove. No casing or topping.

I usually stove the whole destemmed leaves first to where I want them and then press later(where I can try various percentages) but trying this press first stove after, inspired by macbarens bold Kentucky or ODF I suppose. 40% Kentucky with the red virginia (a but stronger than the bright virginia from wholeleaftobacco) is a good mix for a strength just past medium suitable for anytime of the day. If it's cased with syrup or sugar the Kentucky percentage can go a little higher as the additional sugar tames the tobacco and changes the ph.

 

[Effortlessdepths]

60% red virginia
40% dark fired kentucky

Pressed the leaf in alternate layers. Overnight in the noodle press. Wrapped in tin foil this morning and put in the oven at around 200°C for about 3-4 hours. I tried a bowl this morning unstoved and it was nice, I'll see what the stoving has done maybe tonight.

I've been doing some simpler Virginia Kentucky blends, seeing what I can do with just the two leaves. Various stoving and casing topping. Decided to take the simple theme a bit further and press then stove. No casing or topping.

I usually stove the whole destemmed leaves first to where I want them and then press later(where I can try various percentages) but trying this press first stove after, inspired by macbarens bold Kentucky or ODF I suppose. 40% Kentucky with the red virginia (a but stronger than the bright virginia from wholeleaftobacco) is a good mix for a strength just past medium suitable for anytime of the day. If it's cased with syrup or sugar the Kentucky percentage can go a little higher as the additional sugar tames the tobacco and changes the ph.View attachment 47874

Looks good. How long did you press it for? I've two VaPer blends pressing in noodle presses and they just hit one week under pressure, curious if there is much advantage going longer than a week. If there is I'll leave em be

 

[F4RM3R]

Looks good. How long did you press it for? I've two VaPer blends pressing in noodle presses and they just hit one week under pressure, curious if there is much advantage going longer than a week. If there is I'll leave em be

I just leave mine overnight. It's enough to get things to hold together. Then I'll air it out to get the moisture down and jar it up. It depends on if you are using stoved or unstoved leaf. The stoving process will destroy certain enzymes that will contribute to aging. I like my virginias stoved, so I don't leave my plugs to age under pressure at all. Things will sort of meld after a few days out of the press as the moisture evens out through the flake, but nothing drastic. If you're virginia is unstoved the yes leaving it in the press can have some changes. How much change? Well I would just do and experiment and make two plugs and smoke one right away and see the difference.

Usually I'll stove my virginia to where I want it( I'll usually do a batch of medium stoved at 4-6 hours and a black stoved 12-16hours) and then do the blending with other leaf after. Sometimes just doing a ribbon cut with other leaf(Kentucky, perique, latakia, orientals) to get the percentage down for a given blend and then I'll press when i get something good.

This time I knew what percentages I wanted and how long I wanted to stove the plug(not too much) so I pressed first and then popped it in the oven to meld a bit. I wanted to go simple too. Just press and bake, slice and smoke. No messing with stoving leaf first and then having to dry it out to proper pressing moisture.

 

[Effortlessdepths]

I just leave mine overnight. It's enough to get things to hold together. Then I'll air it out to get the moisture down and jar it up. It depends on if you are using stoved or unstoved leaf. The stoving process will destroy certain enzymes that will contribute to aging. I like my virginias stoved, so I don't leave my plugs to age under pressure at all. Things will sort of meld after a few days out of the press as the moisture evens out through the flake, but nothing drastic. If you're virginia is unstoved the yes leaving it in the press can have some changes. How much change? Well I would just do and experiment and make two plugs and smoke one right away and see the difference.

Usually I'll stove my virginia to where I want it( I'll usually do a batch of medium stoved at 4-6 hours and a black stoved 12-16hours) and then do the blending with other leaf after. Sometimes just doing a ribbon cut with other leaf(Kentucky, perique, latakia, orientals) to get the percentage down for a given blend and then I'll press when i get something good.

This time I knew what percentages I wanted and how long I wanted to stove the plug(not too much) so I pressed first and then popped it in the oven to meld a bit. I wanted to go simple too. Just press and bake, slice and smoke. No messing with stoving leaf first and then having to dry it out to proper pressing moisture.

Yes I'm keen on making sure that perique interacts with, and casts it's magical spell of alkalinity upon the Virginia's very thoroughly, but I'm not sure what a good cut off time would be, where diminishing returns sets in. Another question if you will: I'm mixing a blend as a gift to my wife. I'm basically going for Pegasus/Angler's Dream, a BurVaCav with cinnamon flavor. Ive done a fair amount of blending and I think I have the percentage correct, but how about that cinnamon flavor? Right now I have 2 cinnamon sticks worth of chips in 2 oz 153 proof spirits, and I think that should be enough to flavor it. But I also want to press the blend. Should I spritz, let the alcohol evaporate, and then press? And how would I do a simple casing for the blend to sweeten it? I was hoping to use honey.

Basically, if you were doing this, how would you go about it? Any suggestions are appreciated, I really want this to knock her socks off. I don't want the cinnamon so spicy that it bites her tongue and whatnot, but I sure as hell don't want it to subtle either, I want it to be obvious.

I apologize if this is off your subject, you just seem to know what you're doing.

 

[F4RM3R]

Yes I'm keen on making sure that perique interacts with, and casts it's magical spell of alkalinity upon the Virginia's very thoroughly, but I'm not sure what a good cut off time would be, where diminishing returns sets in. Another question if you will: I'm mixing a blend as a gift to my wife. I'm basically going for Pegasus/Angler's Dream, a BurVaCav with cinnamon flavor. Ive done a fair amount of blending and I think I have the percentage correct, but how about that cinnamon flavor? Right now I have 2 cinnamon sticks worth of chips in 2 oz 153 proof spirits, and I think that should be enough to flavor it. But I also want to press the blend. Should I spritz, let the alcohol evaporate, and then press? And how would I do a simple casing for the blend to sweeten it? I was hoping to use honey.

Basically, if you were doing this, how would you go about it? Any suggestions are appreciated, I really want this to knock her socks off. I don't want the cinnamon so spicy that it bites her tongue and whatnot, but I sure as hell don't want it to subtle either, I want it to be obvious.

I apologize if this is off your subject, you just seem to know what you're doing.

You can leave your vaper in the press as long as you like really. My only concern would be mold if it's too moist, but other than that it can stay in there indefinitely. Some people do up to a few weeks, but honestly I don't know if there is much difference between a week and 3. As far as the perique goes, it won't make the plug any more or less alkaline as far as I know, by keeping it pressed for a long time Even just a ribbon cut perique mixed some virginia and immediately smoked will alter the ph of the whole bowl.

As for your wife's blend. I sometimes spray and press right away, that will get the flavours in nicely. I also sometimes like to warm the leaf (in case, not dry) and then spray the topping as the heat opens the pores for better absorption into the leaf. I'll especially do this if I am using the leaf for ribbon cut and if I want to spray a.lot of topping, I'll spray the. Dry gently In the oven and repeat the spraying. If it's getting pressed right away then spray and press works, but sometimes if you spray heavily the tobacco can be too moist for a plug. Not much of a problem, but the tobacco will really stick together tightly as the excess moisture cause the cell walls to be weaker. Making a solid brick of a plug instead of something that comes apart a little easier when slicing. Basically, high case or slightly more than smokable case is good for pressing.

I would do some tests on some ribbon cut to see how potent your cinnamon topping is. Heat ,spray and jar up for a day and smoke the next day after drying back down to smoking case. Leaving things to meld for a few days is better when doing ribbon cut , but for test purposes you can smoke right away. Pressed tobacco can be smoked right away after topping cause the flavour is already pushed into the leaf.

As for honey, sugar is a tricky one. It will smooth things out, but can really tame a tobaccos nicotine absorption if you are concerned about that. Too much sugar can be acrid, harsh and bitey. I only add sugar to blends with strong tobaccos or ones with less sugar like Kentucky or burley. Virginia has enough sugar on its own for me. I also prefer to add sugars prior to stoving to sort of meld and carmalize/maillard reaction the sugars. Straight sugar or honey can be sort of acrid and bitey in large amounts. Often blenders use invert sugar as it doesn't bite or burn during the smoke in the same way regular sugar does.

I use maple syrup or molasses. Honey is good to though. Does you alcohol itself have any sweetness or flavour? As for amount, something in the range of 5%(in ml, compared to grams of tobacco) is a good place to start. So 2.5ml of sugar per 50g tobacco. You can go up to 5 ml or a teaspoon as well for more sweetness but it will start to change the ph of the blend drastically. Virginia tobaccos are high in sugars(could be up to 20%, or so I've read) so that's a good base of judgement if using other tobaccos where you want to add sweetness. I would personally add the honey to the tobacco that will be stoved into Cavendish and then stove it with the sugar first instead of just adding the sugar after. But you can try it right before pressing too. Just using less maybe. I'm no expert and there are many ways of doing things. I say just do small batch experiments to figure out what works and then go for the big batch when you got it down.

 

[Effortlessdepths]

You can leave your vaper in the press as long as you like really. My only concern would be mold if it's too moist, but other than that it can stay in there indefinitely. Some people do up to a few weeks, but honestly I don't know if there is much difference between a week and 3. As far as the perique goes, it won't make the plug any more or less alkaline as far as I know, by keeping it pressed for a long time Even just a ribbon cut perique mixed some virginia and immediately smoked will alter the ph of the whole bowl.

As for your wife's blend. I sometimes spray and press right away, that will get the flavours in nicely. I also sometimes like to warm the leaf (in case, not dry) and then spray the topping as the heat opens the pores for better absorption into the leaf. I'll especially do this if I am using the leaf for ribbon cut and if I want to spray a.lot of topping, I'll spray the. Dry gently In the oven and repeat the spraying. If it's getting pressed right away then spray and press works, but sometimes if you spray heavily the tobacco can be too moist for a plug. Not much of a problem, but the tobacco will really stick together tightly as the excess moisture cause the cell walls to be weaker. Making a solid brick of a plug instead of something that comes apart a little easier when slicing. Basically, high case or slightly more than smokable case is good for pressing.

I would do some tests on some ribbon cut to see how potent your cinnamon topping is. Heat ,spray and jar up for a day and smoke the next day after drying back down to smoking case. Leaving things to meld for a few days is better when doing ribbon cut , but for test purposes you can smoke right away. Pressed tobacco can be smoked right away after topping cause the flavour is already pushed into the leaf.

As for honey, sugar is a tricky one. It will smooth things out, but can really tame a tobaccos nicotine absorption if you are concerned about that. Too much sugar can be acrid, harsh and bitey. I only add sugar to blends with strong tobaccos or ones with less sugar like Kentucky or burley. Virginia has enough sugar on its own for me. I also prefer to add sugars prior to stoving to sort of meld and carmalize/maillard reaction the sugars. Straight sugar or honey can be sort of acrid and bitey in large amounts. Often blenders use invert sugar as it doesn't bite or burn during the smoke in the same way regular sugar does.

I use maple syrup or molasses. Honey is good to though. Does you alcohol itself have any sweetness or flavour? As for amount, something in the range of 5%(in ml, compared to grams of tobacco) is a good place to start. So 2.5ml of sugar per 50g tobacco. You can go up to 5 ml or a teaspoon as well for more sweetness but it will start to change the ph of the blend drastically. Virginia tobaccos are high in sugars(could be up to 20%, or so I've read) so that's a good base of judgement if using other tobaccos where you want to add sweetness. I would personally add the honey to the tobacco that will be stoved into Cavendish and then stove it with the sugar first instead of just adding the sugar after. But you can try it right before pressing too. Just using less maybe. I'm no expert and there are many ways of doing things. I say just do small batch experiments to figure out what works and then go for the big batch when you got it down.

Thanks for all the advice, I feel like I have a better idea of how to go about it now. Also, I went ahead and took the blends out of the presses. I usually crumble them up so they're ready to smoke, but whats your opinion on slicing them? These are crumble cake, so they are pressed ribbon, not whole leaves.

 

[saltedplug]

60% red virginia
40% dark fired kentucky

Pressed the leaf in alternate layers. Overnight in the noodle press. Wrapped in tin foil this morning and put in the oven at around 200°C for about 3-4 hours. I tried a bowl this morning unstoved and it was nice, I'll see what the stoving has done maybe tonight.

I've been doing some simpler Virginia Kentucky blends, seeing what I can do with just the two leaves. Various stoving and casing topping. Decided to take the simple theme a bit further and press then stove. No casing or topping.

I usually stove the whole destemmed leaves first to where I want them and then press later(where I can try various percentages) but trying this press first stove after, inspired by macbarens bold Kentucky or ODF I suppose. 40% Kentucky with the red virginia (a but stronger than the bright virginia from wholeleaftobacco) is a good mix for a strength just past medium suitable for anytime of the day. If it's cased with syrup or sugar the Kentucky percentage can go a little higher as the additional sugar tames the tobacco and changes the ph.View attachment 47874

What a great job you're doing!

 

[hawky454]

Wow man! Good job! I can’t wait till I start toying with some homegrown, that will definitely be the next step in this journey. I bet that is tremendously satisfying to smoke your own blend that you made from the ground up!

I would also like to learn how to make some pretty good toppings and casings. I still toy around with toppings but I can’t even get close to those more complex sauces that you find in the old Irish/British tobaccos. When I have the time and the land to grow, I’m going to go deep down that rabbit hole!

Thank you for sharing, these kinds of threads are very inspirational.

 

[F4RM3R]

Thanks for all the advice, I feel like I have a better idea of how to go about it now. Also, I went ahead and took the blends out of the presses. I usually crumble them up so they're ready to smoke, but whats your opinion on slicing them? These are crumble cake, so they are pressed ribbon, not whole leaves.View attachment 48071

Glad I could help!

I do crumble cakes too. Sometimes if I am toying with percentages I'll just make a ribbon mix and keep adjusting until it's right and then press. I like crumble cakes for more complex blends where some tobaccos are in lower percentages(like an English with 10% oriental or Kentucky). Easier to get an even mix rather than try to layer it all. Also spraying a topping on ribbon is easier than trying to get it evenly on a whole leaf. I prefer to slice mine a little thicker and then lightly crumble it apart and gravity fill.

I just leave all my cakes or plugs whole until I want to smoke or I might cut up a few bowls worth to dry and put that in a jar. The cakes/plugs keep moisture very consistent, so they won't really dry out after opening a jar many times like a ribbon might. I even just leave mine out in the open for days or a week, as they dry out very slowly, I like to get moisture down a bit closer to smoking case so my dry times are shorter after I slice.

Well that's partly why plugs were made back in the day when not everyone had jars on hand to store or carry their tobacco. A plug holds that moisture for a surprising amount of time.

 

[Ahi Ka]

Assuming you are using WLT leaf, try swapping out some of the dark fired for dark air cured. I did a similar blend recently but stoved the va with some ennerdale mixed in. I found the dark air cured to ramp up nicotine (sneaky bugger) without overpowering the flavours of either the va or dfk.

 

[F4RM3R]

Assuming you are using WLT leaf, try swapping out some of the dark fired for dark air cured. I did a similar blend recently but stoved the va with some ennerdale mixed in. I found the dark air cured to ramp up nicotine (sneaky bugger) without overpowering the flavours of either the va or dfk.

I've bought the dark air cured a few times, and it does ramp up the strength with and more subtle flavour. But I found it a little too earthy and cigar like for my tastes. Im all about Kentucky for any of my burleyish needs, but it's true that it can be hard to find a balance of strength while still tasting the Va in a ky/va blend. The kentucky also has some earthyness which is sort of tamed by stoving it, stoving also removes the floral notes of the kentucky, but its an ok trade off for a smoother smoke sometimes. The wlt Kentucky seems to have a similar nic content to the dark air cured.

 

[Ahi Ka]

I’ve found adding equal parts DAC to either perique or DFK to help spread their flavour without taking it part condimental level. (Talking 20% tops combined) Most of my blends start off with 30-40% burley base. I’m growing stag horn this year to see how it works as a dark Virginia. Quite excited about that one actually

 

[Ahi Ka]

Do you ever blend with Stoved and unstoved parts of the same component? Or only stoving some parts of the blend?

 

[F4RM3R]

I’ve found adding equal parts DAC to either perique or DFK to help spread their flavour without taking it part condimental level. (Talking 20% tops combined) Most of my blends start off with 30-40% burley base. I’m growing stag horn this year to see how it works as a dark Virginia. Quite excited about that one actually

That stag horn looks pretty nice, might have to try that one next year. Do you use much virginia in your blends?

 

[F4RM3R]

Do you ever blend with Stoved and unstoved parts of the same component? Or only stoving some parts of the blend?

Yes I am starting to do that with Kentucky(stoved is smooth and bbq like while unstoved is more nutty, chocolate floral) and I have always done that with virginias. I prefer them stoved, so I'll do some to varying degrees(maybe some at 2-3 hours and some at about 6-8 hours and some at 16+ hours(black stoved Cavendish) and mix those into blends. Using all three together makes a nice full virginia flavour, the medium stoved adds nice sweetness and the black stoved is a sweet and creamy cool smoke which is nice for most blends and is my favourite way to have virginia. Really works good in an English blend or vaper.

But yes I've definitely been doing that more often as I can get a fuller flavour profile and smooth things out a bit with the heavy stoving. most of the time I'll stove the leaves separately and do the blending and pressing after. This time around I thought I would go simple, just press overnight and stove the next day for a few hours, no casing or additional flavours or sweeteners.

 

[Ahi Ka]

I’m totally fine smoking blends without any bright leaf in them, or even with a very small amount in just for that touch of sugar. If I am deliberately blending with bright leaf, I lean towards the red/orange (but surprisingly also double bright, taste like white choc to me) spectrum and would not normally include more than 40% in a blend.

Originally I would make something and then stove it, but i have since had better success at compiling a blenders bench of sorts and then using these components. Like yourself some of my blending components are further processed and some are just pressed. The main difference has been letting everything settle Before use. as after a few weeks it seems To have mellowed. I quite enjoy Using stoving As a method for infusing flavour into a blend. Currently playing around with stoving Va with a pinch of ennerdale in the jar. Another great one was Adding Latakia to the va before stoving. Seemed to spread its oiliness and sweetness without overpowering. I “stove” using sealed jars inside a slow cooker. Equal weight leaf to liquid for cavendish. 2x weight leaf to liquid for stoving

 

[Ahi Ka]

I have some dark fired wrapper leaves so I’m gonna make a few small sticks of your blend and stove to see how it comes out. I love Newminster 403

 

[F4RM3R]

I’m totally fine smoking blends without any bright leaf in them, or even with a very small amount in just for that touch of sugar. If I am deliberately blending with bright leaf, I lean towards the red/orange (but surprisingly also double bright, taste like white choc to me) spectrum and would not normally include more than 40% in a blend.

Originally I would make something and then stove it, but i have since had better success at compiling a blenders bench of sorts and then using these components. Like yourself some of my blending components are further processed and some are just pressed. The main difference has been letting everything settle Before use. as after a few weeks it seems To have mellowed. I quite enjoy Using stoving As a method for infusing flavour into a blend. Currently playing around with stoving Va with a pinch of ennerdale in the jar. Another great one was Adding Latakia to the va before stoving. Seemed to spread its oiliness and sweetness without overpowering. I “stove” using sealed jars inside a slow cooker. Equal weight leaf to liquid for cavendish. 2x weight leaf to liquid for stoving

That's interesting about the virginia and latakia stoving to merge flavours, same with the ennerdale. Bright leaf does have a nice creamyness when stoved but I prefer the wlt red virginia as it has a bit more strength, so I don't need as much high strength leaf to kick things up to where I like it.

I just use an all metal food container or just a baking loaf tin with some tin foil on the top when I'm doing larger batches. Always nervous about dropping a jar.

I do the blenders bench, but now that I am familiar with percentages and what goes well together I think I'll just start pressing first and then stoving, depending on what I need. Seems a little simpler for me.

 

[F4RM3R]

I have some dark fired wrapper leaves so I’m gonna make a few small sticks of your blend and stove to see how it comes out. I love Newminster 403

Nice, well good luck with the experiment!

 

[Ahi Ka]

Just smoked the Stoved va with ennerdale component straight last night in the garden as I ran out of my blend. Amazing how sitting for a month took any of the harshness away. I can officially say I enjoyed a blend without burley in it. Lol