Tobacco Plants: I Missed My Botany Course

[mso489]

As a Boomer, I went to college when many courses filled up before I got to registration at my assigned time, so no botany for me. I got put in vertebrate physiology with a bunch of pre-meds, and in geology courses that were terrific. But I've always been a little slack on botany. So ...

Do most pipe tobaccos derive from two general families of tobacco plants -- Virginia and burley? I know Cavendish is made from either. Is Latakia made from one or both? Is Turkish a separate leaf, or related to either? It's too late for Botany 101, but a little micro-course might help.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

In a discussion we were having about flu cured a few years ago, Sykes of SPc came in and said that there was someone who had written a book declaring that there actually was no differences between a burley and a bright leaf (Virginia). I meant to note who that author was and the name of the book, but I misplaced it and the thread.
I know that jitterbugdude, a tobacco farmer also always argued that there was no difference.

There is a visible difference to me, in the leaf structure and the way it sets on the plant. But, keep in mind that all of these names of divisions in everything are manmade. The plants didn't tell us top call them burleys.

I do know that there is very little difference between an air cured Virginia and an air cured burley.

We all also have to keep in mind that these divisions that specifically we "pipesmokers" use were developed as a marketing terms. The rest of the tobacco world, farmers and manufacturers, do not uses these same divisions... AT ALL.

 

[mso489]

That's an alarming thought, that there's not much difference, since so much discussion surrounds preferences on Virginia and burley. Years ago, I had an acquaintance who was a tobacco geneticist, and I wish he were around today. But he was so interesting on other subjects like training mules to work as teams (you know, paired up in harness), and with a vast knowledge of birds in North America and on other continents, I never picked his brains on actual tobacco plants. A missed opportunity.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

That's an alarming thought, that there's not much difference, since so much discussion surrounds preferences on Virginia and burley.

Yeh, the majority of what us pipesmokers talk about concerning tobaccos is complete marketing bullshit. If someone has been smoking corporate Virginias their whole life, they just might be in for a shock at what an unadulterated Virginia actually tastes like. Everyone sets around bashing cigarette companies, meanwhile they think FVF doesn't have a casing. Pipe tobacco is drenched in it. Hell, I don't think there is a single Esoterica product where you can actually taste the tobacco over that licorice case and topping.

 

[anotherbob]

In a discussion we were having about flu cured a few years ago, Sykes of SPc came in and said that there was someone who had written a book declaring that there actually was no differences between a burley and a bright leaf (Virginia). I meant to note who that author was and the name of the book, but I misplaced it and the thread.
I know that jitterbugdude, a tobacco farmer also always argued that there was no difference.

There is a visible difference to me, in the leaf structure and the way it sets on the plant. But, keep in mind that all of these names of divisions in everything are manmade. The plants didn't tell us top call them burleys.

I do know that there is very little difference between an air cured Virginia and an air cured burley.

We all also have to keep in mind that these divisions that specifically we "pipesmokers" use were developed as a marketing terms. The rest of the tobacco world, farmers and manufacturers, do not uses these same divisions... AT ALL.

or more what we call tobacco types are really tobacco products more accurately. We're describing process more then we are describing botany.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

or more what we call tobacco types are really tobacco products more accurately. We're describing process more then we are describing botany.

^^that!

 

[Country Bladesmith]

@mso489 , if it makes you feel better, I took botany, and none of this was discussed! ?
I’m sure most people are probably aware that there is a bit of difference between the academic taxonomy you’d get in a textbook or botany class, and the plant varieties that exist in agriculture. In other words, all tomatoes belong to the same species, so on that level, one could say there’s no difference, yet we have “beefsteak,” “better boy,” “mortgage lifter,” etc, etc. I’m not sure if it’s the same with tobacco, but I’d bet it probably is.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

As far as seed stock is concerned, there are far more varieties of burley than anything. However, in the pipe world we only know them as White, dark, and mahogany burleys.
Among what we call “Virginias” there are also many different bright leaf varieties. However, all we know is the color of curing, barely related to the variety. But, you can grow bright leaf that has a natural lemon flavors, orange flavors, and a whole host of other natural flavors.

Tomatoes are similar. There are hundreds of different varieties of tomatoes, but when you go to buy a can of tomatoes, the only thing listed on the label is “tomatoes.” It doesn’t say whether they are romas, beef steaks, cherokee, or big mamas. Just “tomatoes.”

Orientals are weird. Some barely look like tobacco. It’s always amazed me that taking seed to other parts of the world quickly gave us so many different looking and tasting varieties. Fast.

Some varieties actually taste like perfume or licorice naturally.

I watched a show where they Selectively bred foxes for qualities that made them More friendly. And, within five generations they had something that looked like a small collie. Just on traits that made them better pets.

Genetics are weird things. Being a redhead, I was always interested in where that color comes from. I had always been told it was Gaelic. But, there is proof in photographs and artwork that redheads are naturally found in every ethnicity in the world. In Asia, they are taboo, and historically they were eliminated young going back to before the Kahns. In African, South American, All over. With more redheads in the Baltics than anywhere.

One plant... with so many flavors, strewn across the globe. It boggles the mind.

 

[anotherbob]

wait till you start reading about citrus fruits and how their genetics work into the fruits we have. Just saying you think this is weird. Or apples and cloning.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

wait till you start reading about citrus fruits and how their genetics work into the fruits we have. Just saying you think this is weird. Or apples and cloning.

Apricots are kinda weird too. I have some growing on 2' tall bushes, and 20' trees, with different types of leaf structures. I have a friend who grows them on these little sticks in the ground, and they all taste pretty much identical.

 

[Ahi Ka]

Tom you might find this a quick and interesting read:

https://www.bettercodger.com/images/Blend%20Your%20Own_FREE.pdf

 

[anotherbob]

Apricots are kinda weird too. I have some growing on 2' tall bushes, and 20' trees, with different types of leaf structures. I have a friend who grows them on these little sticks in the ground, and they all taste pretty much identical.

everyone know we share like 80 or 90 percent genetics with Chimps but few people know we share like 70 some percent genetics with cabbage. My point life is really freaken strange.

 

[mingc]

Do most pipe tobaccos derive from two general families of tobacco plants -- Virginia and burley? I know Cavendish is made from either. Is Latakia made from one or both? Is Turkish a separate leaf, or related to either? It's too late for Botany 101, but a little micro-course might help.

Did you go to a college that taught that?!

 

[canucklehead]

everyone know we share like 80 or 90 percent genetics with Chimps but few people know we share like 70 some percent genetics with cabbage. My point life is really freaken strange.

Cabbage, broccoli, kale, Brussels sprouts, gai lan, kohlrabi, cauliflower, and several other vegetables are all the same plant bred into different shapes.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Cabbage, broccoli, kale, Brussels sprouts, gai lan, kohlrabi, cauliflower, and several other vegetables are all the same plant bred into different shapes.

Most of our food is that way. Mustard, onions, spinach, and tobacco makes up 99% of all of our foods. mustard became cabbage and all of those others mentioned as the seeds made their way around the world, and deformed into different things. Onions, became a whole bunch of other plants. Tobacco gave us potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, nightshades, etc... Spinach became beets, chards, etc... If you think about it, we really don't eat a very diverse diet, just different varieties of the same things.

 

[anotherbob]

Most of our food is that way. Mustard, onions, spinach, and tobacco makes up 99% of all of our foods. mustard became cabbage and all of those others mentioned as the seeds made their way around the world, and deformed into different things. Onions, became a whole bunch of other plants. Tobacco gave us potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, nightshades, etc... Spinach became beets, chards, etc... If you think about it, we really don't eat a very diverse diet, just different varieties of the same things.

kind like how pipe blends work.

 

[mso489]

mingc, no I couldn't get into the botany course at all, but as a post pointed out, none of the basic botany courses at the undergrad level would have gone that deeply into tobacco plants specifically. Only a pipe smoker with an insatiable curiosity feels the need to know. Ahi Ka's link is pretty interesting -- if you have time, give it a look.

 

[canucklehead]

Most of our food is that way. Mustard, onions, spinach, and tobacco makes up 99% of all of our foods. mustard became cabbage and all of those others mentioned as the seeds made their way around the world, and deformed into different things. Onions, became a whole bunch of other plants. Tobacco gave us potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, nightshades, etc... Spinach became beets, chards, etc... If you think about it, we really don't eat a very diverse diet, just different varieties of the same things.

My mom accidentally created some weird curly kale/mustard green hybrids in her greenhouse a few years back. They grew little curly green leaf structures out of the middle of flat purplish leaves, tasted spicy like mustard, and were very cold tolerant. I'm assuming that's what happened in the past also, someone noticed an interesting variation on the normal wild brassicas and kept the seeds to replant.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

My mom accidentally created some weird curly kale/mustard green hybrids in her greenhouse a few years back. They grew little curly green leaf structures out of the middle of flat purplish leaves, tasted spicy like mustard, and were very cold tolerant. I'm assuming that's what happened in the past also, someone noticed an interesting variation on the normal wild brassicas and kept the seeds to replant.

I have, what I call, a free range onion bed. I started with regular spanish yellows, and every time I harvested one, I left the root button at the bottom. And, I’d let then go to seed. Then I planted some reds and several types if bunching onions. It’s been 12 years now, and I have some red bunching onions. They are spicy like a red, but grow as fast as regular bunchers. I call then Cosmic Onions.

 

[rajangan]

Hi,


I have to ramble a bit. I'm sorry. This is a very huge topic.

Umm, so "there's no difference between Virginia and burley" is true and not true. They are (mostly) the same species. So it's not like either grapes or that other thing people smoke, where they are mostly multi-species hybrids.

Nicotiana tabacum, and Nicotiana rustica are both tetraploid, so that is a source of a great amount of phenotypic variation. I'm neither a geneticist, nor a mathematician, but I think it would take both to fully understand the implications for expression.

The terminology we use (burley, bright, oriental) is related to genetics, nonetheless. The thousands of burleys are more closely related to each other than they are to the hundreds of bright tobacco strains, (and vice versa).

The names are related to market classes, and are regulated in many countries, such as by the USDA in America, and they generally overlap with what we logically perceive as significant differences in their qualities. The classes make a lot of sense if you look at one country, then it starts to get muddled if you look too far, (or even back in time).

For example, Indonesia has a classes like sun cured, and rajangan, (a sub category of sun cured), as well as cigar classes with Dutch names that are related to the time of year one plants them.

In India, they have flue-cured, burley, oriental, cigar filler, and wrapper, but they also have groups such as chewing tobacco, hookah tobacco, bidi tobacco, motihari tobacco, natu tobacco, and cheroot tobacco. Cheroot tobacco is all very similar looking and distinct, with long skinny leaves. They are clearly related, but hookah and chew contain both N. tabacum and N. rustica strains. This illustrates the fact that their nomenclature is based on practical use, rather than genetics, but is sometimes the intersection of both.

So, I take an international perspective and try to let everyone call it what they will.

This is my fuzzy interpretation of tobacco classification in Western countries: flue cured is straight forward.
Then you've got a broad class of air cured tobacco. Within air cured tobacco, there are divisions for light air cured, dark air cured, and fire cured. Under light air cured, you have burley, and maryland. Under dark air cured, you have dark air, cigar filler, and cigar wrapper.

So there are genetic differences. They aren't species level differences. The strains within a market class are (probably) closely related.

Another thing. There are clearly different groups of oriental strains. I have little understanding of it, but the reality is easy to see based on flavour, and leaf and plant size. Bursa is definitely distantly related to Izmir for example. Latakia is not a strain but is made with an oriental, I believe of the basma classification. If you look at posts in some other forum written by istanbulin, you will learn lots on orientals.

One more thing. We ought to stop saying turkish as a general term because there are orientals from turkey and there are orientals from other countries. For example, prilep, kavala, mahalla, dubec, and shirazi are examples of important orientals not from Turkey.

Edit:
Another thing to throw into the mix is Delgold, a Canadian Virginia, actually is a multi species hybrid with both tabacum and rustica genes. But we still call it a flue cured strain.