Tobacco chemicals

[jamespworth]

Hi all
Right first thing I'm well aware some of us could not care less about this which is fine but I still find it an interesting subject.
What chemicals are going into the tobacco we smoke? is it better than cig tobacco and what if any are the benefits of organically grown tobacco.
I personally feel that the mass production of tobacco has massively increased the risk of cancers. We seen a massive spike in cancers around the time cigarettes took the place of pipes and cigars which has been put down to the inhalation of the smoke. Around the same time the demand for tobacco increased as the vast majority of the population including women started smoking, could the increased demand and way of growing and preparing have had some effect?
Lung cancers only accounted for 1% of deaths in the UK before cigarettes seems a little odd to me and I love a conspiracy.

 

[novicemaker]

you do make a great topic james, i know some of the science end of this, but mostly the smoke side not the tobacco side. Smoke wise the amount of chemicals in the smoke is less harmful from pipes then cigs. The process the body does on the smoke makes it(once out of the body) close to 1000times worse per cubic inch of smoke. an example would be. x chemical that isnt present until the body breaks it down in the lungs and then once broken down breaks down further when exhaled and mixed in the air. Id like to know the chemicals involved in the process of cigs and pipe tobacco. i feel that pipe baccy is less harmful because its mostly dried leaves and fermentation.

 

[tuold]

There was a discussion related to this topic here: WTF IS In My Tobacco?
In my mind, it's not what's in the tobacco so much as what does it become after it is combusted? I'm not sure the particles you inhale undergo any change in your lungs. They either get exhaled back out or get get lodged in your airway where they get mixed with mucus and eventually coughed out or swallowed. (ech!) Of course particles and gases small enough will be absorbed directlyt into your blood stream. The idea with pipe smoke, of course, is not to inhale.

 

[novicemaker]

exactly, do not inhale. There is a process the lungs do to the air mixture that in one way reduces the toxic nature while its in the lungs but once it is expelled out of the lungs it then under goes another break down where certain chemicals actually get worse. i dont remember the names or amounts at this time but ill look it up later.

 

[jamespworth]

I am interested in the fertilisers used in some tobacco production which I have heard lodges in the lungs, Not inhaling is obviously the best bet but then that begs the question what harm second hand smoke does when we smoke indoors.
I understand there is risk with smoking of all kinds but don't see any point in increasing those risks unnecessarily, especially if there is hidden risks they aren't telling us.
I have heard making organic tobacco products is almost untenable due to legislation they have to follow.

 

[novicemaker]

Most products that are used tend to fall under trade secretes and dont have to be revealed unless they pose a risk. While pipe tobacco does have a smaller market so information is out there they too dont know everything the farmers use unless the farm is owned by the company. Id love to learn everything that comes into my body but sometimes its better to not know. just think of it in this manner, if you drive with your windows down and a car passes you you are breathing in hydrogen monoxide a by product of gas combustion. we take in numerous chemicals and dont even realize it. So if you are fretting over it dont and if you are just the curious type like myself then study it till you are satisfied.

 

[pipesinperu]

Looking at tobaccoreviews.com, it seems that McClelland used to have an organic blend: http://www.tobaccoreviews.com/blend/1818/mcclelland-organically-grown-flake
According to the review on there by pipestud, they were made to stop producing it because their plant didn't meet organic certification standards. Also looks like Cornell & Diehl had another blend, Organic Pipe Dreams, which is also no longer in production.

 

[novicemaker]

It is sad that its harder to pass organic testing then it is to pass normal sop for tobacco business. seeing as everything thats grown "organic" gets a higher price tag. i still think its a stupid concept, plants are already organic what does it matter if it was grown in dirt that came out a cow/horse rear end or was grown with miracle grow...i know organic means something else about the insecticides and so forth but the idea of it being called organic is horse poodoo.

 

[woodsroad]

@james:

" is it better than cig tobacco..."

The tobacco itself is identical in cigarettes and pipes

"...and what if any are the benefits of organically grown tobacco."

Potentially, the difference is huge. Pesticide residue would be the primary toxin in whole leaf (unprocessed) tobacco, and residue levels can be high. Imported leaf is spot tested for residue, domestic tobacco is not.

"We seen a massive spike in cancers around the time cigarettes took the place of pipes and cigars which has been put down to the inhalation of the smoke."

Not entirely. The real uptick in cancers occurred when manufacturers moved away from using shredded whole leaf and began using reconstituted tobacco product, complete with a large percentage of "non-tobacco product"

@novice:

"Most products that are used tend to fall under trade secretes"

Follow the link that tuold provided for the WTF IS In My Tobacco thread. All of the additives are listed, they are are just not specific to each blend. No secrets, just mysteries.
@james:

"I have heard making organic tobacco products is almost untenable due to legislation they have to follow"

Then you have heard wrong. Santa Fe Natural Tobacco Company (American Spirit, owned by Reynolds) is entirely organic. They support their farmers with a program that holds their hand through the certification process and helps them with crop rotation advice etc. Not only is it possible, but it is profitable. But organic tobacco is only profitable on a large scale. For McClelland to produce a certifiable organic pipe tobacco, the entire plant used to produce that product must be certified. So they either have to build a separate plant for their organic products, or certify their entire operation. Not feasible for producing an organic tobacco that will comprise a tiny, tiny fraction of their sales. The answer here is to get Santa Fe Natural to produce a pipe tobacco! But even that is a daunting task. American Spirit uses just a few tobacco types, notable Virginia and Burley. If you want a tobacco with Dark Fired, or an Oriental strain, you'll be SOL.
@novice:

"i still think its a stupid concept, plants are already organic what does it matter if it was grown in dirt that came out a cow/horse rear end or was grown with miracle grow"

There is a lot of BS and marketing hype around organic, and a lot of people who buy organic do so for irrelevant reasons. It is not irrelevant, though, that there are a lot of toxins introduced into the food chain that are a clear and present danger to our health. We are better off not ingesting pesticide residue, artificial flavors and colors and a host of other chemicals not found in nature, but found in our food and tobacco. Soil contamination is a real problem. All manner of crap used over the years as herbicides and pesticides is still present in soil that is under cultivation. Orchards all over the US are still contaminated with arsenic from applications of lead arsenate dating back over 100 years. Field crop acreage has similar problems.
Last but not least, if you want to smoke organic pipe tobacco, you can buy organic whole leaf in small quantities here. Turning it into a great pipe tobacco isn't difficult.

 

[jamespworth]

Bravo Woodsroad very informative my thirst for knowledge is satisfied and I think I might want to try organic tobacco.

 

[woodsroad]

Buy a pound of the organic leaf, and slice it up with a pair of scissors!
If you like it, you'll want to start looking into other ways that you can process it, like toasting, steaming, pressing, and flavoring.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Run the whole leaf through a paper shredder. That is how I did It. You can pick them up rather cheap and does a pretty fair ribbon cut, IMO. Just don't use it for paper, and then run tobacco through it, unless you really like the taste of burning paper.

 

[woodsroad]

A paper shredder is a good idea. Check the cut first, though. My shredder makes confetti, some cut really thin. A pasta cutter works, too.

 

[yaddy306]

There is a lot of BS and marketing hype around organic, and a lot of people who buy organic do so for irrelevant reasons. It is not irrelevant, though, that there are a lot of toxins introduced into the food chain that are a clear and present danger to our health. We are better off not ingesting pesticide residue, artificial flavors and colors and a host of other chemicals not found in nature, but found in our food and tobacco.

Woodsroad, while I agree that we are better off not ingesting hosts of chemicals, smoking "organic" tobacco is no guarantee that you are chemical-free. For instance, the following synthetic substances are allowed in organic crop production: isopropanol, chlorine dioxide, peracetic acid, sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, potassium silicate, copper oxychloride, streptomycin, tetracycline, lignin sulfonate, etc. This is from the USDA National Organic Program's "National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances". Not to mention rotenone, pyrethrin, and other "organic" pesticides.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Yaddy, I could eat a handful of each of those pesticides mentioned. They do not kill in the way that chemically engineered poisons do.

And, most of those chemicals, are a natural part of food, meaning, they naturally occur in the things we eat. Everything is chemical, its just a matter of what an engineered chemical can do, verses the chemicals that make up a naturally occurring strawberry.

 

[woodsroad]

The term "organic" is used interchangeably to mean a lot of different things. When it comes to Organic Certification, there are numerous entities with widely differing standards and agendas who will hand you a certificate in exchange for cash. None can certify that the products sold by that company are in compliance with whatever "standards" they are supposed to adhere to. They can just say that the certified entity has complied with their requirements. The USDA is very lax, while some of the non-profit groups run a tight ship with high standards and meaningful compliance checks.
Yaddy, nobody expects the absolute. Any reduction in the quantity of added chemistry in stuff that comes in contact with us, is a good thing. And products do not have to be certified organic for that to happen. I'm thinking of Integrated Pest Management, for example, a school of thought and practice that aims to reduce pesticide use, primarily to save farmers money. It has kept tons of chemicals out of the environment and saved farmers a lot of cash.

 

[yaddy306]

My point was simply that "organic" doesn't equate to "chemical-free" or "pesticide-free", nor does "chemical" equate to "bad".

Further, "engineered chemical" doesn't mean "bad" any more than "natural" means "good".
The terms don't have consistent definitions, therefore concluding that organic tobacco is less harmful than non-organic is specious.
"The dose makes the poison".

 

[woodsroad]

"concluding that organic tobacco is less harmful than non-organic is specious"

Unless you produce something yourself, you have no idea what is in it. The best we can do is to rely on the manufacturer, or someone who is monitoring the manufacturer, for information about the product.
If I can choose between a product that is known to have stuff in that I'd rather not ingest, and a product that claims not to have that stuff, all else being equal, I'll choose the latter. I'm not a toxicologist, and I don't own a testing lab, but I can do the next best thing and make an informed choice.
It isn't an all-or-nothing choice.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You're right, but there are chemicals that make up my blood, and chemicals that make up petroleum, of which I would not want the two to intermingle. You can't fuzzy the lines between them. There are certain chemicals that I just don't want around me at all, and some of those are used every day in normal agriculture. Believe me, I'm out here in the world of Ag.
However, I agree with your point. Once we put flame to leaf, even if it was as pristine as day Columbus landed, if we smoke too much, it's dangerous. But, I would prefer a world where we could reduce the use of some of the chemicals, especially to make the environment that us farmers live in a tad better.

 

[rasselass]

I don't know much about the Chemicals in differing Tobacco's but as a Tobacconist for 30 years,i had many customers for Cig's,Loose Snuff and Pipe Tobacco...Over the years mostly the folk who died of Cancer related illness's were Cig.smokers,most of the Snuff and Pipe smokers living to their nineties...This was a general observation over the years i knew my customers,my G/G father /G/father and Father all lived to their late 80's and all smoked Gallahers Warhorse Bar/Plug{strong pipe tobacco)as i said a "General Observation"...Good Luck.