That's why I've stockpiled. No intent on putting back for aging, just to have when I can no longer afford. Aging is just the coincidence of not getting around to smoking it yet.
Time to Taste the Benefits of Cellaring?
- Thread starter Highlandpiper
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You might like it more right now than you will in a year, in two years, or in five years. It will change, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will change for the better. Managing the myths and your expectations is significant.
As far as the minimum time you should wait to experience the depth of flavor, it really depends on the type of tobacco and the blend. Some tobaccos can take months to reach their peak, while others can take years. In general, I'd say you should wait at least 6 months, but it really depends on the blend. It's also important to keep your tobacco stored in a cool, dry place to ensure it stays in good condition.
I am meeting with my financial people today. I am going to pitch this hard and see if they agree.
Boy, won't my wife be happy with how I look out for our future!
Do you mean that, on your theory, oxygen molecules in the leaf are being replaced by C02 and nitrogen, and that leaf with less oxygen and more C02 and nitrogen gives that deeper taste?
Or is there another step involved -- As in, maybe a C02 and nitrogen rich environment effects some sort of change in the starches of the leaf (or something like that)?
What agent or mechanism would be replacing oxygen with C02 and nitrogen?
Why would a fresh infusion of oxygen then "open up" the flavors, later?
I'm inclined to agree with you, Orestis -- I'm just a plebeian when it comes to microbiology and chemistry, and I'm sincerely curious!
Oxygen is taken up by metabolic processes in the plant cells or bacteria until it is at a low level.
Lack of oxygen would allow fermentation by anaerobic bacteria.
Reintroducing the oxygen then allows metabolic reactions to resume after fermentation.
Basic organic chemistry. Sure don't miss the 7am labs!
I'm curious whether Karam agrees that anaerobic bacteria are in play, since it sounded like he was doubtful of the role of microorganisms in cellaring tobacco.
I myself am in no position to have an opinion. Just curious all around.
Enzymes which do most of the work we want when we think of aging, are not living things, but, to put it plainly, they are like triggers for chemical reactions that are left behind once the good bacteria have died off. So, we need both types of "fermentation," and I hate using the word "fermentation," because this sets off those with a little knowledge about wines and such. This is nothing like converting sugars to alcohol. It's not even really in the same ballpark.
I can't tell, don't know and my own basic biochemistry is many years behind me.
My point was more broad that in my opinion any sort of living organism (ie bacteria and fungi) would move faster than the rate of change we see in stored tobacco, so the next alternative is slow enzymatic activity (however enzymes are likely knackered by the time tobacco makes it to a tin, especially if any heat above say 50C has been applied). The final potential contributor to change would be even slower reactions between oxygen present in the tin and compounds in the tobacco itself, and these are the processes which could take years as well as be independent of there being living organisms or even enzymes in the leaf.
Guess one way of knowing would be to buy a tin, split it in several portions and do the following with each:
- jar it ("normal" cellaring)
- store airtight under argon (though unless the oxygen was removed first there could be some minute action ongoing)
- store in liquid nitrogen - this last option would essentially suspend the tobacco at that moment, in theory once removed and let to thaw the tobacco should be as it was the day it was frozen
Thank you, I'm in the same boat having done some fermentation myself
If it is oxidation causing aging (and if we assume that it is something preferable), then it would be reasonable to think that regularly airing out a jar would help or speed up the process?I can't tell, don't know and my own basic biochemistry is many years behind me.
My point was more broad that in my opinion any sort of living organism (ie bacteria and fungi) would move faster than the rate of change we see in stored tobacco, so the next alternative is slow enzymatic activity (however enzymes are likely knackered by the time tobacco makes it to a tin, especially if any heat above say 50C has been applied). The final potential contributor to change would be even slower reactions between oxygen present in the tin and compounds in the tobacco itself, and these are the processes which could take years as well as be independent of there being living organisms or even enzymes in the leaf.
Guess one way of knowing would be to buy a tin, split it in several portions and do the following with each:
If I had access to a lab I would actually do the experiment myself
- jar it ("normal" cellaring)
- store airtight under argon (though unless the oxygen was removed first there could be some minute action ongoing)
- store in liquid nitrogen - this last option would essentially suspend the tobacco at that moment, in theory once removed and let to thaw the tobacco should be as it was the day it was frozen
What is this enzymatic "fermentation" in this process? I am only familiar with the conversion of sugars to alcohol. Would this be enzymes converting starches into sugars?
If you ever do this, report back!I can't tell, don't know and my own basic biochemistry is many years behind me.
My point was more broad that in my opinion any sort of living organism (ie bacteria and fungi) would move faster than the rate of change we see in stored tobacco, so the next alternative is slow enzymatic activity (however enzymes are likely knackered by the time tobacco makes it to a tin, especially if any heat above say 50C has been applied). The final potential contributor to change would be even slower reactions between oxygen present in the tin and compounds in the tobacco itself, and these are the processes which could take years as well as be independent of there being living organisms or even enzymes in the leaf.
Guess one way of knowing would be to buy a tin, split it in several portions and do the following with each:
If I had access to a lab I would actually do the experiment myself
- jar it ("normal" cellaring)
- store airtight under argon (though unless the oxygen was removed first there could be some minute action ongoing)
- store in liquid nitrogen - this last option would essentially suspend the tobacco at that moment, in theory once removed and let to thaw the tobacco should be as it was the day it was frozen
To be clear... no alcohol is made from the fermentation of tobaccos, no yeast are involved in any way. It really isn't fermentation like we think of at all.
Starch is a polysaccharide, which as to be broken down into mono and disaccharides (sugars). Enzymes also break down any proteins or fats into these sugars also. But, there is more going on... more complex molecules are also being formed from other chemical, like nicotine and the flavonoids.
The trick is knowing or guess what age will do to different tobaccos. On a taxonomical level, there is no difference between burleys and Virginias. But, as we know, from the curing process, we get different types of sugars. What happens to the sugars in casings and toppings?
On a more basic level, I'm enjoying some KBV Van Gogh this very minute. I like it just fine right out of the pouch and to me, to me, it's as tasty in its own way as Virginias I have that are well aged. Some others are great out of the tin with some airing with no real age on them.
I've purchased a cellar in some respects and happy with the aged ones I've chosen to buy from forum members or @pipestud or recently with the Capstan 2019 offering, but part of the journey so far has been simply realizing there is plenty of Va I like without any concern for aging and I'll get more of those and yes, cellar some as well, but good is good for my palate and I'm not too worried about adding to a cellar other than for now keeping some selective blends.
I've purchased a cellar in some respects and happy with the aged ones I've chosen to buy from forum members or @pipestud or recently with the Capstan 2019 offering, but part of the journey so far has been simply realizing there is plenty of Va I like without any concern for aging and I'll get more of those and yes, cellar some as well, but good is good for my palate and I'm not too worried about adding to a cellar other than for now keeping some selective blends.
That's a great question, and one I have no answer for! I say oxidation because I can't think of more obvious reactions going on, but there must be. But oxidation overall is not considered a good process, for example when transferring (racking) or bottling mead the popular wisdom is to try to avoid splashing as much as possible, as air being dissolved in the mead can oxidise it in the bottle.
Gut tells me that regularly airing out a jar would be detrimental but other than hypotheses I have no answer. My idea is that whatever is that is going on in a sealed tin/jar/mylar just needs to be left to do its thing. Probably wine people can shed some light, though it'd be unheard of to open an old bottle of wine only to not drink it all in that sitting. I mean between 4 people a bottle of wine is merely 2 glasses each, so anyone doing this experiment would be doing it just to find out. So, wine guys, how DOES old wine react to being opened and not finished immediately? @cosmicfolklore I know you know a lot about both home brewing and home growing so please continue weighing in!
What has been widely reported here, and I have experienced in my hands, is the rapid deterioration of old tobacco once disturbed: I once saw here about a sale of SG Balkan Flake with I think at the time 15 years of age on it. The flakes were almost black in colour, rubbery and had a very rich and very complex savoury smell. I had a couple of bowls of it and recall it's among the best thing I've ever smoked in 10+ years of pipe smoking. What I did was jar it immediately to "save for a good moment", well after some months the moment wasn't coming so I smoked some more. Pure disappointment, the taste was almost gone, flat, a faint idea of Latakia and not much else.
Instead of going to bed I decided to ask ChatGPT, here's what it said to the question "what chemical reactions happen in tobacco leaf fermentation":
And this is what it said about chemical reactions occurring in wine aging:
And this is what it said about pipe tobacco aging:
When pipe tobacco ages, a variety of chemical and physical changes occur that can alter its aroma, flavor, and smoking characteristics. The aging process can also help to reduce harshness and bitterness in the tobacco, resulting in a smoother smoking experience. Some of the key changes that occur during pipe tobacco aging include:
What I bolded are the mentions of the Maillard reaction, a term very well-known to foodies and beloved the world over by its impact on fried/grilled food!
- Hydrolysis: The breakdown of complex organic compounds into simpler ones by adding water molecules. During fermentation, hydrolysis of the tobacco leaves results in the breakdown of starches and other complex carbohydrates into simple sugars.
- Oxidation: The process by which oxygen molecules are added to organic compounds. In tobacco fermentation, oxidation occurs due to the exposure of tobacco leaves to air. This process results in the development of the characteristic aroma and flavor of tobacco.
- Reduction: The process by which electrons are added to organic compounds. Reduction occurs during fermentation when bacteria and other microorganisms consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide and other byproducts.
- Esterification: The reaction between an alcohol and a carboxylic acid to produce an ester. During tobacco fermentation, esterification occurs as a result of the interaction between alcohols and carboxylic acids present in the tobacco leaves.
- Pyrolysis: The breakdown of organic compounds by heat. During tobacco fermentation, pyrolysis occurs due to the high temperatures generated by the bacterial activity, which results in the breakdown of organic compounds and the release of volatile compounds responsible for the characteristic aroma and flavor of tobacco.
And this is what it said about chemical reactions occurring in wine aging:
- Oxidation: Oxygen reacts with various organic compounds in wine, such as ethanol and phenolic compounds, resulting in the development of new aroma and flavor compounds. Controlled levels of oxidation are important to the aging process and can be influenced by factors such as oxygen permeability of the wine bottle closure and the storage temperature.
- Reduction: The opposite of oxidation, reduction is the removal of oxygen atoms from organic compounds. This process can contribute to the development of desirable aroma and flavor compounds, such as those associated with aging in oak barrels.
- Hydrolysis: The breakdown of chemical compounds in the presence of water. During wine aging, hydrolysis of the glycosides that are present in grape juice or wine can release aroma and flavor compounds, including terpenes and other aromatic compounds.
- Esterification: The reaction between an alcohol and a carboxylic acid to produce an ester. During wine aging, esterification occurs as a result of the interaction between alcohols and acids present in the wine, producing compounds such as ethyl acetate and isoamyl acetate.
- Polymerization: The combination of small molecules into larger ones. During wine aging, tannins can undergo polymerization, resulting in the development of a smoother texture and more complex aroma and flavor profiles.
- Maillard reaction: The reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars, which can lead to the development of brown color and flavor compounds. This reaction is more common in fortified wines, such as sherry, where it contributes to the development of nutty and caramelized flavors.
And this is what it said about pipe tobacco aging:
When pipe tobacco ages, a variety of chemical and physical changes occur that can alter its aroma, flavor, and smoking characteristics. The aging process can also help to reduce harshness and bitterness in the tobacco, resulting in a smoother smoking experience. Some of the key changes that occur during pipe tobacco aging include:
- Oxidation: Over time, the organic compounds in the tobacco are exposed to oxygen, which can lead to the development of new flavor and aroma compounds. Controlled levels of oxidation can help to enhance the tobacco's flavor, while excessive oxidation can cause the tobacco to become stale.
- Fermentation: Like tobacco used for cigars, pipe tobacco is often fermented during the aging process. This process helps to break down complex organic compounds and create new flavor and aroma compounds. Controlled levels of fermentation can help to enhance the tobacco's flavor and aroma, while excessive fermentation can lead to the development of off-flavors.
- Maillard reaction: This is a chemical reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars, which can create new flavor and aroma compounds. This reaction is more common in darker, sweeter tobacco blends and can lead to the development of notes of caramel, chocolate, or coffee.
- Evaporation: Over time, some of the volatile compounds in the tobacco can evaporate, which can lead to a more concentrated flavor and aroma. However, excessive evaporation can cause the tobacco to become dry and harsh.
- Polymerization: The combination of small molecules into larger ones. During aging, tobacco leaves can undergo polymerization, resulting in a smoother smoking experience and more complex flavor and aroma profiles.
What I bolded are the mentions of the Maillard reaction, a term very well-known to foodies and beloved the world over by its impact on fried/grilled food!