Thoughts on Tongue Bite.

[dunnyboy]

So, that's it. Mystery solved. We can all stop reading tea leaves and consulting the stars to give us the answer to this ineffable mystery. The next time I read some garbage about pH causing tongue bite, I'm going to reach through my computer screen and strangle the idiot who wrote it.

Why does it have to be either thermal or chemical? What can't it be both? Why can't thermal cause one type of oral "burn" and chemical another? Why can't we all just get along!

Last night I smoked Larsen 1864, a European aromatic, in a gigantic Dublin with an extra long stem. My daughter came over to watch the Super Bowl and I wanted something with a pleasant room note. As soon as I lit up the Larsen I remembered why I never smoke it—instant tongue bite and not just near the bit but over the entire surface. Now as far as I know Larsen's tobacco doesn't burn hotter than all the other blends I smoke, and I wasn't puffing because I don't like the flavor of 1864 that much. So ... chemical!

Call me an idiot but please don't reach through my computer and strangle me!

 

[vosBghos]

This might be the first time I have ever seen someone claim burley as the worst offender for tongue bite.

pretty sure this is a troll post

 

[fireground_piper]

For sure, likely.

 

[Chasing Embers]

pretty sure this is a troll post

I couldn't imagine it either. Most of the complaints are about aromatics, Virginias, and Perique.

 

[FHlight]

I don't have the trouble of tongue bite.

 

[UrsaMinor]

Smoke something like Virginia #1 too fast and that’s a chemical burn.

No way. What chemical does it have that other tobaccos don't? Tobacco smoke in general has chemicals that cause cancer, but something toxic enough to burn your mouth is another story. If toxic chemicals were the cause, then how come cigars don't cause tongue bite until you smoke down to the nub?

I'm telling you blokes, tongue bite is caused by hot matter entering the mouth. Hot oil isn't too far off the mark, because there are oils in the smoke.

Ha ha ha ha... I want to see ... ha ha. 1400F, ha ha. Kills me.

Agreed. Just doing a basic ... of a cigarette.

It looks like the temperature varies depending on who does the study.

Look at this one:

Less harmful constituents when heating a cigarette at lower temperature

Many of the harmful constituents found in the smoke from a conventional cigarette result from the burning of tobacco. Lowering the temperature at which the “smoke” is generated means that nicotine and some aroma compounds are still released, but the user may no longer be exposed to many of the com…

www.utwente.nl

"When a conventional cigarette burns, the burning tip reaches a temperature of about 900 degrees Celsius."

I should have looked at more articles. Plus, I was looking at the burn temp of cigarettes, which apparently contain jet fuel.

Regardless, my point stands. yanoJL's google findings show a temperature hot enough to damage the tissues in the mouth.

not the same thing. Sorry but you didn't hit the home run you think you did at all. First off this isn't a massively studied thing. The medical explanation is good enough because it doesn't really matter any more then it's something that happens to smokers. If the explanation which serves mainly to get people to make healthier choices doesn't have to be right. From a medical stand point you get the same end result no matter the actual cause. So even if you do happen to be right it's not a mic drop, case closed, or even anywhere close to it. Sorry.

Ya think doctors just make stuff up? Smoker's kerotosis is real, and roughly half of pipe smokers have it. It's caused by extreme temperatures in the mouth, which I believe also causes tongue bite.

 

[UrsaMinor]

Why can't we all just get along

BAHAHAHahah get a load of this guy!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

burning tip reaches a temperature of about 900 degrees Celsius."

900c = 1652F... that just doesn't even make sense. A stacked log fire in the fire place is 600F at it's core and radiates at about 100F. So the tip of a cigarette can burn through bronze or sterling silver? I think some of these studies involves people who do not understand how to use the instruments.
If I touched my finger to 900c, it would evaporate right through my finger into bone.

Tobacco incinerates just above 451F and can burn freely at around 475F so you should be able to smoke and keep your pipes under 500F. Keep in mind that there is a big difference in merely ten degrees. You can only stay alive between 60F and 110F, and the difference between 60F and 80F are a whole wardrobe of clothes. And, any metalsmith that deals with metals knows that ten degrees can mean you are making a good weld or getting firescale. Just willy-nilly saying 600C, 900C etc... is just someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

 

[mortonbriar]

900c = 1652F... that just doesn't even make sense. A stacked log fire in the fire place is 600F at it's core and radiates at about 100F. So the tip of a cigarette can burn through bronze or sterling silver? I think some of these studies involves people who do not understand how to use the instruments.
If I touched my finger to 900c, it would evaporate right through my finger into bone.

Tobacco incinerates just above 451F and can burn freely at around 475F so you should be able to smoke and keep your pipes under 500F. Keep in mind that there is a big difference in merely ten degrees. You can only stay alive between 60F and 110F, and the difference between 60F and 80F are a whole wardrobe of clothes. And, any metalsmith that deals with metals knows that ten degrees can mean you are making a good weld or getting firescale. Just willy-nilly saying 600C, 900C etc... is just someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

I think part of the issue with the heat comparisons is that temperature alone is not the only variable. @cosmicfolklore oxyacetylene with a small tip, of course that would melt your finger thanks to the addition on pressurized oxygen to the flame but most of us can put a candle out by squeezing with bare fingers right? Check whatever source you want, I know I was surprised to see just how hot a candle flame gets when measured in C or F, particularly when I know it is not that hot to the touch (like tamping a pipe bowl).

Oh and concerning the OP, I got tongue bite from everything when I was a novice, and then I slowed down.
Now I get a strong reaction only if I accidentally smoke perique.

 

[UrsaMinor]

is just someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

That describes everyone on this forum, especially me.


If you touched your finger to 900°c for a fraction of a second, it wouldn't even burn you. Here's a video of a guy slapping molten metal.

Molten steel is roughly 2000°f, but because he touches it for such a short time, very little of that heat is transferred to his hand.

If a tiny ember burns at 1400°f, but it cools in the matter of milliseconds due to its tiny mass, it's not going to transfer much heat; maybe enough to burn a few cells on your tongue causing tongue bite, but not enough to evaporate your flesh to the bone, as you so theatrically described it.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I think part of the issue with the heat comparisons is that temperature alone is not the only variable. @cosmicfolklore oxyacetylene with a small tip, of course that would melt your finger thanks to the addition on pressurized oxygen to the flame but most of us can put a candle out by squeezing with bare fingers right? Check whatever source you want, I know I was surprised to see just how hot a candle flame gets when measured in C or F, particularly when I know it is not that hot to the touch (like tamping a pipe bowl).

Oh and concerning the OP, I got tongue bite from everything when I was a novice, and then I slowed down.
Now I get a strong reaction only if I accidentally smoke perique.

The "pressurized" oxygen which is actually regulated out at 10-15lbs is merely increasing the temperature, because propane and acetylene alone cannot reach those temperatures... but, apparently tobacco can.

Look, I have worked with all sorts of heat. Coal. wood, applied oxygen raises the temperatures enough to start smithing. A whole bed of burning coal alone cannot melt metal. But, yet 5 grams of tobacco in a briar pipe can. For some reason I can't see videos posted on here today. But, I am sure it something magical. Ha ha.

I mean, you can bring up all sorts of videos or websites that can say this thing or that... but, I work with heat all day long.... anyways, I am not going to exhaust myself on this.
Ok, believe whatever.

 

[PipeIT]

@UrsaMinor I took my time to kindly respond to you. Did you read the link I posted?

Also non of it is just rants/rambles by people sharing what they think.

Many of the leading pipe tobacco experts and blenders in the industry today, all agree on PH balance being the cluprit.

So, now, as to why you think by what you shared, well, we burn tobacco and put that smoke in our mouth, and the PH has an effect, in the simplest of terms.

So I was sharing fact not fiction.

Now if you don’t wish to believe, then contact Cornell and Diehl, G.L. Pease, Mac Baren, Russell Ouellette, etc...

@jeremyreeves the blender of C&D is quite kind and does respond to emails, maybe if he has time he’ll pop in here, and maybe we can also kindly ask a moment from @glpease Mr. Pease too.

Many of these companies will respond to you, and to be honest, if your were genuine in your post, and really wanted to know the truth, then have you contacted any of them, instead of just posting here?

Because you said this is nonsense, so it didn’t seem like you actually contacted any of the professionals in the business to tell you otherwise.

hmm

 

[mortonbriar]

The "pressurized" oxygen which is actually regulated out at 10-15lbs is merely increasing the temperature, because propane and acetylene alone cannot reach those temperatures... but, apparently tobacco can.

Look, I have worked with all sorts of heat. Coal. wood, applied oxygen raises the temperatures enough to start smithing. A whole bed of burning coal alone cannot melt metal. But, yet 5 grams of tobacco in a briar pipe can. For some reason I can't see videos posted on here today. But, I am sure it something magical. Ha ha.

I mean, you can bring up all sorts of videos or websites that can say this thing or that... but, I work with heat all day long.... anyways, I am not going to exhaust myself on this.
Ok, believe whatever.

I hear you, and I was a jeweller for quite a few years, soldering joins, collapsing small claws into a blob when distracted etc... I am not insisting on a pipe bowl being any particular temperature, I just went and had a look at what a candle flame heat is recorded to be, since I thought that would be more generically recorded by 'science' than a pipe bowl...and I was surprised by the numbers, they seem too high for something you can put your hand in.

 

[UrsaMinor]

For some reason I can't see videos posted on here today

Youtube age-restricted it for some reason. Click where it says "watch on youtube", and youtube will open with the video.

Now if you don’t wish to believe, then contact Cornell and Diehl, G.L. Pease, Mac Baren, Russell Ouellette, etc...

It's not enough to know that professionals have all said the same thing. I would have to know what led them to believe it. You're right, though, maybe if I contact them they can clear up the issue by telling me their reasoning.

 

[UrsaMinor]

Look, I have worked with all sorts of heat. Coal. wood, applied oxygen raises the temperatures enough to start smithing. A whole bed of burning coal alone cannot melt metal.

A bed of coal can't, but a furnace of coal can.

Coal utilization - Coal combustion

The most common and important use of coal is in combustion, in which heat is generated to produce steam, which in turn powers the turbines that produce electricity. Combustion for electricity generation by utilities is the end use for 86 percent of the coal mined in the United States. The main...

www.britannica.com

>>>>"The burning of coal can produce combustion gases as hot as 2,500 °C (4,500 °F)"<<<<<

Ferrous metallurgy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>>>"Iron was originally smelted in bloomeries, furnaces where bellows were used to force air through a pile of iron ore and burning charcoal. The carbon monoxide produced by the charcoal reduced the iron oxide from the ore to metallic iron."<<<<

Come on, brother, try thinking with your head instead of your rear end.

 

[PipeIT]

It's not enough to know that professionals have all said the same thing. I would have to know what led them to believe it. You're right, though, maybe if I contact them they can clear up the issue by telling me their reasoning.

Hi @JimInks don’t mean to drag you in, but would you know something on the subject of PH balance and bite as it relates to VAs?

@UrsaMinor well, this is why I am saying contact them, rather than look here, because what I posted is from the professionals.

Since I am not one of the professionals, all I can tell you is Virginias do have more bite to them, and that their PH balance is different to other leafs.

 

[UrsaMinor]

@UrsaMinor well, this is why I am saying contact them, rather than look here, because what I posted is from the professionals.

Fair enough. That'll be my next step, I suppose.

 

[JimInks]

Bright Virginias have the highest PH and grass content. Age will reduce that to some extent. Even though it doesn't give me tongue bite, I tend to take a slower puffing cadence when smoking most predominant bright Va. blends.

 

[PipeIT]

I suppose

You suppose? I think so, you’re going way off topic here, and coming across harsh towards others.

When you are new in any online community, this isn’t the way to start out.

 

[PipeIT]

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