The Breathability Of Briar Wood - What Do You Think?

[pitchfork]

Unless somebody here can find the research or is willing to do the scientific studies required we are all talking out of our asses. Be it Rad Davis or Joe Dumb*ss they know precisely jack and are just rendering an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions.

:rofl:
Six, Capt., just to clear up one thing, we're talking about at least two different kinds of "breathing," -- one relating to porosity and the absorption of moisture, the other relating to heat transfer. I think some of us are also thinking in terms of the flow of air through the wood, so a third kind as well.
Scientific tests can answer certain empirical questions, but as I said above, if air or water vapor aren't flowing all the way through the wood during the course of a smoke, it won't reach the coating or finish on the outside of the bowl. I've yet to hear a theory as to how the finish would have more than an infinitesimal effect on the transfer of heat in that case. A copper pipe bowl would transfer heat quite well, for example, but not because it is porous. In fact, a copper bowl would be "sealed" far better than varnished wood. Put varnish, lacquer, etc. on a copper bowl and the heat transfer would be virtually identical.
What Six and Lars Ivarsson are talking about is another matter entirely, having to do with moisture and tar rather than heat. I don't think many people dispute the fact that the inner surface of the bowl has at least some effect on the qualities of the smoke. Can the wood become clogged? I suspect so, but while that may affect heat transfer to some extent (probably not much), it's still unrelated to what's on the outer surface of the bowl.
Just one more thing, as folks have mentioned, heat is a molecular phenomenon. It doesn't depend on the movement of hot air or water vaper through the bowl.

 

[captainsousie]

Six, Capt., just to clear up one thing, we're talking about at least two different kinds of "breathing," -- one relating to porosity and the absorption of moisture, the other relating to heat transfer. I think some of us are also thinking in terms of the flow of air through the wood, so a third kind as well.

Good clarification and probably needed in the thread. As to the other kind, heat still plays a role and, personally, I do believe that briar does in fact absorb some moisture during a smoke and needs time to release that moisture after. To me that is breathing. However, unless the pipe has paper thin walls, the moisture will not go all the way through the briar in a smoke. Think of Morta and how it is created. It takes millennia to go through the transition and absorb all that crap and I believe briar is denser than oak. If we bring cake into the argument as well, it does bring up the idea that eventually you are no longer relying on the briar to absorb and are now relying on the cake. So, this might eventually become moot if you build a good cake.
Thanks for the discussion, I'm having a blast with it.

 

[yaddy306]

If someone can convince me that a thin coating of shellac or lacquer on my pipe can seriously affect heat transfer, then I'll use that shellac or lacquer and spray it on my parka. It should keep me much warmer in the winter!

 

[captainsousie]

Lacquer or another sealer, depending on thickness and composition, will probably impede heat transfer

 

[misterlowercase]

Unless somebody here can find the research or is willing to do the scientific studies required we are all talking out of our arses. Be it Rad Davis or Joe Dumb*ss they know precisely jack and are just rendering an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions.

Great quote, and true too!
Being that Rad Davis was brought up, he has done a little research into the subject:
"I personally don't think that wood breathes in the way that many pipes smokers think. Sure, it will absorb and lose moisture with changes in the ambient humidity, but as far as air passing through the walls of a pipe? I don't think so."
and this:
Take a scrap of briar and leave it soaking in a bowl of water for a few hours, and then saw it in half on your bandsaw.
You might be surprised at how little water has been absorbed.
This first pic is of one of my pipes that had been smoked for about a year, before the owner burned a hole in the bottom trying to light a bowl of ash:

This one is an old leather wrapped piece of junk that someone gave me. It has been smoked a *lot*.

If you look closely, you can see that the only coloring of the interior wood is from scorching. Check the shanks, and you can see that no color from smoking has been absorbed at all.
Also, take note of how deep the stain on the first pipe penetrated. It was stained with red mahogany.


Briar has become the ideal pipemaking material for many reasons, most of which are unknown "magical" properties.
In the case of highly porous pipes, like meerschaum or corncobs, the material can often overcome the sloppy engineering or poor workmanship and still offer a good smoke...
...and briar is nowhere near that porous, it needs to be "built right" or the pipe won't function very well.
Briar is pretty dense, so I reckon porosity would be minimal, but not too dense, so it can at least "breath" a little --- compared to say ebony, which is even denser and mostly non-porous, which has a tendency to crack more easily with heat.
I've read that morta is more porous than briar, and some people say it's almost like smoking a meerschaum, and also that it smokes cool, perhaps to the high porosity dissipating heat better? But I've read conflicting descriptions, some say they smoke hotter?
Here's a good quote I found regarding briar:
"As we all know, briar is a very dense material which, in it's unprocessed state, is also saturated with oils and resins. In nature, plants exhibiting these characteristics usually occur in arid climates; they are a survival strategy to reduce the evaporation of scarce water. The resins in briar are (to a great degree) removed during processing by boiling the rough-cut blocks, which are subsequently air-dried under controlled humidity until they're in shape to be worked into pipes. It seems to me that a primary quality of good briar is it's inablity to absorb (or lose) moisture! Dimensional stability is a critical aspect of any material which must undergo the extremes of temperature and moisture which commonly occur in a pipe. Woods which are porous are quite unstable, dimensionally; they expand and contract in relation to the level of even ambient (atmospheric) moisture. If briar easily absorbed and released moisture, you'd have a very difficult time getting a good fit on the stem - which joins an impermeable material (vulcanite/acrylic) to the wood. In addition, the stem mortise is usually the thinnest wood on the pipe, traps significant moisture during smoking, and would be very susceptible to expansion/contraction if the wood was even moderately porous. On dry day the stem would fall out, on a humid one the shank would crack!"

The bottom line is to attempt to educate yourself on this complicated matter and make the best decision you can given the information. Remember though, any decision you make will still only be speculation.

I agree.
Although overthinking this topic has made my brain hurt!
I think I'll just accept it as a "magical material" and leave it at that!

::

 

[captainsousie]

Just out of curiosity and to extend the discussion a little, what about the way unfinished/un-stained pipes color over time? Is it a product of absorbing tiny bits of the smoke over many smokes or is it hand oils or something completely separate?
Thanks for the further info that you have found lowercase. Since briar is such a dense wood it does make sense that, especially after being charred a bit on the surface, it would absorb little to no moisture but it would be interesting to conduct some experiments. It also makes sense, per some of the statements in the OP that the heat would cause the pores to open and absorb a little moisture thereby making for a better smoking experience. Yep, brain hurts but this is a fun topic.

 

[pipingruotsi]

My guess is that those pipes color from skin oils and ambient smoke. Wiping down with a pipe rag, too, maybe

 

[bigvan]

I'd say Rad Davis knows a little more about the subject than Joe Dumb@ss. No offense to Joe!

 

[numbersix]

but as far as air passing through the walls of a pipe?

When I think of breathability, I don't go so far as thinking air actually passes through the briar, but rather its ability to expand and contract as well as absorb some moisture.

 

[sablebrush52]

Opinions are like noses...
I seem to remember hearing them compared to a quite different anatomical feature...
I would agree that the darkening of a pipe's finish over time is the result of accumulated grime, whether hand or other skin oils, smoke, and whatever else is settling into the surface. I've cleaned up hundreds of pipes and when I do a surface cleaning it's surprising how much brown grime comes off onto the cloth.

 

[misterlowercase]

Here's a scientific analysis of olive wood, they're using really high temps though...

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0718-221X2007000100002&script=sci_arttext

...the electronic microscopy of the "pores" is pretty cool.
They use the word "pyrolysed", I like that.
Good forum nickname= briar-pyrolyser
Here's one the more understandable writings about the structure of wood:

http://www.bc.org.nz/purpose.html
...some briar tech info:

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/briar/
...and a great write-up about pores:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/hardwood-anatomy/

 

[captainsousie]

Thanks lowercase, now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCPIrs90eg

 

[misterlowercase]

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[misterlowercase]

This was a fun topic.
Any more input?
Or am I beating a dead root?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

This is just my opinion and conjecture, but I don't think that we hang on to briar because it is absolutely the most dense wood or because it burns at any higher point of ignition. I think that we hang on to it as a wood out of tradition and learned aesthetics. We've come to love the aromas and processes that link us with pipesmokers of the past. What they loved about the hobby, we've come to embrace. There's a guy who comes to hang out with us at The Briary that has made his own pipes from cherry, oak, walnut, etc... His pipes are pudding proof that these woods hold up to hardcore smoking. However, I am not attracted to the aromas those woods give off. He is. He no longer even tastes the aromas that are obvious to everyone else in the room. Just like we become oblivious that our briars have an aroma. Briar also has interesting grain patterns that we've grown to expect. I also wonder if the French had of started using mahogany to make pipes, would tobacco blends taste any different than they do today?
As for breath-ability, I think that the consensus is that it's poey. Some of my favorite smokers are Nording Valhallas, which have a heavy sealed surface, and they smoke cool and open. I have quite a few Savinellis with sealed surfaces also, great smokers. However, I prefer a waxed surface if faced with a choice. My reasoning is that I am buying an artisan made pipe, and I associate wax with other artisan made wood things. I want a quality surface on my hand-made desk, boxes, etc... It just seems easier to me to slather a thick layer of sealer on something than to take the item down to a finished surface and wax it. It just seems aesthetically better, in my opinion, because it requires more skill and process, and I appreciate these sorts of things.

 

[hawky454]

This is an excellent, informative thread. I had to bump it after I saw it linked in the 'Austopsies Performed On Several Old Pipes' thread.
I am a believer that briar does indeed breathe. I have an old Peterson Kilarny that is covered in Shellac and it smokes horribly! I have been inspired by this thread to sand it and re-finish it with carnuba wax to see if I can't get that thing to finally produce a good smoke. Misterlowercasse, will you please share with me what stages of sandpaper grit you used to sand your pipes?

 

[pitchfork]

hawky454,
Good luck with that Peterson. I'll bet you a wooden nickel it still smokes like a Peterson Killarney!

 

[hawky454]

So it's still gonna smoke like crap? You wanna buy it, Pitchfork? It's hands down the worst smoking pipe I own and sanding it won't hurt. The shellac is cracking and looks horrible. Every shellacked pipe I've ever owned smokes horribly, a coincidence? I think not!

 

[misterlowercase]

Hawky, I'm the last person to give sanding advice LOL

Have a look at PMF, here's a thread there:

http://www.pipemakersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9750

...but there's probably another one with more comprehensive details.
I had one of the early Italian-made Stanwell Golden Danish 63M's and it had a very heavy coating of something like polyurethane, it was way thick and alcohol would not remove it --- it smoked super hot, I hated it, so I had no qualms about rusticating it, I made a "nail tool" and had at it and absolutely destroyed it LOL it smoked better though! haha
I did learn that briar dust can act as an allergen in a sense, it sorta bugged out my breathing as well as giving a slight rash where alot of dust had made contact on my wrists.

 

[pitchfork]

So it's still gonna smoke like crap?

I would think so in all seriousness. By the way, most sandblasted pipes are shellacked - that's why they're shiny. Ashton does it that way. So did Rad Davis. I have non-shellacked Petersons that smoke like crap, by the way.