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Sgetz

Lifer
May 21, 2020
1,348
1,840
74
UK
Is anyone aware of a study of actual smoke temperatures at tip of pipe mouthpiece?

I am aware that this will be both difficult and variable. But has anyone tried.
 
I am not aware of such a study.

However the temperature of combustion of a pipe is 500 C


 
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ashdigger

Lifer
Jul 30, 2016
11,378
70,055
60
Vegas Baby!!!
I thought about rigging some thermocouples to a beater pipe I have. But I got busy, lazy or lost interest.

I even went as far as drawing up a diagram

I have a book on smoldering combustion that discusses temperatures throughout multiple phases. I’ll look up what is states about smoke.
 

Sgetz

Lifer
May 21, 2020
1,348
1,840
74
UK
I thought about rigging some thermocouples to a beater pipe I have. But I got busy, lazy or lost interest.

I even went as far as drawing up a diagram

I have a book on smoldering combustion that discusses temperatures throughout multiple phases. I’ll look up what is states about smoke.
Thanks !
 

mparker762

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 1, 2021
112
624
Houston, TX
Is anyone aware of a study of actual smoke temperatures at tip of pipe mouthpiece?

I am aware that this will be both difficult and variable. But has anyone tried.
not sure why you couldn't just drill a hole into the stem right before the mouthpiece and stick the tip of a meat thermometer into the airflow. I would think that you would pretty quickly get a good reading on the temperature. It's also unlikely to be useful, partly because it isn't really the temperature that would burn you but the heat and most of the heat drops out in the shank when the steam condenses, and partly because tongue bite is mostly a chemical burn not a thermal burn.
 

Sgetz

Lifer
May 21, 2020
1,348
1,840
74
UK
not sure why you couldn't just drill a hole into the stem right before the mouthpiece and stick the tip of a meat thermometer into the airflow. I would think that you would pretty quickly get a good reading on the temperature. It's also unlikely to be useful, partly because it isn't really the temperature that would burn you but the heat and most of the heat drops out in the shank when the steam condenses, and partly because tongue bite is mostly a chemical burn not a thermal burn.
I agree it's not temperature but thermal capacity. As to tongue bite being chemical how would one know if you have not filed out heat.

I see here many opinions but not too much fact. I was hoping someone had some facts.
 

mparker762

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 1, 2021
112
624
Houston, TX
I agree it's not temperature but thermal capacity. As to tongue bite being chemical how would one know if you have not filed out heat.

I see here many opinions but not too much fact. I was hoping someone had some facts.
this is all high school physics, chemistry, and biology. the actual numbers don't matter because we have enough information to know that the rate of energy transfer is orders of magnitude too low to cause a thermal burn.

air doesn't hold much heat, the heat content in the smoke is mostly from the water. and air is very poor at transferring heat to another surface, much less a wet surface like the inside of your mouth (hot air actually cools the surface due to evaporation). the most efficient way to transfer heat from the smoke would be to have the steam condense on the linings of your mouth as condensation releases a great deal of heat and water-water heat transfer is quite efficient.

a bowl of tobacco from a group 4ish pipe produces roughly 8-10 drops of water. you can measure this with a good scale and meerschaum with a coloring bowl or with a gourd calabash. as steam, that's a fair amount of energy, roughly as much as a few sips of hot coffee. but as anyone who's smoked a clay or meerschaum pipe can attest this steam condenses in the shank , so quite a bit less of that steam makes it to your mouth. and what is left is trickling into your mouth over the course of the bowl, say 45 mins, so the rate of heat transfer is quite low. meanwhile the blood vessels in your mouth and tongue are quite efficient at moving heat away, as evidenced by the fact that you can safely drink an entire cup of coffee containing several hundred times the energy in those 8-10 drops of water in only a few minutes. the argument that smoke will burn your mouth is essentially an argument that the amount of water equivalent to a small sip of coffee - sipped over a 45 minute period - will burn your mouth.

where the heat does matter is that temperature affects the rate of chemical reactions, and this is likely where the effect of "cooling the smoke" actually matters. the hotter the alkalines in the smoke are when they hit your tongue the faster they will react with the tissue and cause damage. but that's still a chemical burn, not a thermal burn.

coffee, is fairly acidic. our bodies can tolerate acids *much* better than they can tolerate bases so hot coffee tends to not cause chemical burns. pipe tobacco has a tendency to produce alkaline smoke, but our bodies do not tolerate alkalinity at all, and the warmer that alkaline chemical is - even if it isn't hot enough to burn - the more aggressively it will react with our tissues. if the reaction is slow enough, either due to the pH levels being within the acceptable range, or due to the temperature being low enough that the reaction is slow enough that our saliva or drink of choice can wash it away before it does much damage then we will claim it "doesn't bite". if it's a fast aggressive reaction then we say "yup, that's mac baren".
 
Last edited:
Mar 2, 2021
3,476
14,247
Alabama USA
this is all high school physics, chemistry, and biology. the actual numbers don't matter because we have enough information to know that the rate of energy transfer is orders of magnitude too low to cause a thermal burn.

air doesn't hold much heat, the heat content in the smoke is mostly from the water. and air is very poor at transferring heat to another surface, much less a wet surface like the inside of your mouth (hot air actually cools the surface due to evaporation). the most efficient way to transfer heat from the smoke would be to have the steam condense on the linings of your mouth as condensation releases a great deal of heat and water-water heat transfer is quite efficient.

a bowl of tobacco from a group 4ish pipe produces roughly 8-10 drops of water. you can measure this with a good scale and meerschaum with a coloring bowl or with a gourd calabash. as steam, that's a fair amount of energy, roughly as much as a few sips of hot coffee. but as anyone who's smoked a clay or meerschaum pipe can attest this steam condenses in the shank , so quite a bit less of that steam makes it to your mouth. and what is left is trickling into your mouth over the course of the bowl, say 45 mins, so the rate of heat transfer is quite low. meanwhile the blood vessels in your mouth and tongue are quite efficient at moving heat away, as evidenced by the fact that you can safely drink an entire cup of coffee containing several hundred times the energy in those 8-10 drops of water in only a few minutes. the argument that smoke will burn your mouth is essentially an argument that the amount of water equivalent to a small sip of coffee - sipped over a 45 minute period - will burn your mouth.

where the heat does matter is that temperature affects the rate of chemical reactions, and this is likely where the effect of "cooling the smoke" actually matters. the hotter the alkalines in the smoke are when they hit your tongue the faster they will react with the tissue and cause damage. but that's still a chemical burn, not a thermal burn.

coffee, is fairly acidic. our bodies can tolerate acids *much* better than they can tolerate bases so hot coffee tends to not cause chemical burns. pipe tobacco has a tendency to produce alkaline smoke, but our bodies do not tolerate alkalinity at all, and the warmer that alkaline chemical is - even if it isn't hot enough to burn - the more aggressively it will react with our tissues. if the reaction is slow enough, either due to the pH levels being within the acceptable range, or due to the temperature being low enough that the reaction is slow enough that our saliva or drink of choice can wash it away before it does much damage then we will claim it "doesn't bite". if it's a fast aggressive reaction then we say "yup, that's mac baren".
Excellent. So are the pipers with no tongue bite drinking something cool or has their tongue been damaged? Or is there a technique?
 

mparker762

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 1, 2021
112
624
Houston, TX
Excellent. So are the pipers with no tongue bite drinking something cool or has their tongue been damaged? Or is there a technique?
it's probably a combination of things. combustion temperature affects the alkalinity of the smoke, some people simply can tolerate more alkalinity than others. the same is true with acidity, but our body chemistry is inherently biased towards acidity. drinking something seems to help, though what you drink matters. in my case I have a fissured tongue so I'm particularly prone to bite. but I can reduce tongue bite substantially by drinking coffee (hot is better) or lemonade (never tried it hot tbh) every few puffs. smoking slower helps lower combustion temperature but also lengthens the time the chemicals have in contact with my mouth, using a smaller bowl helps with that though. and I can lower combustion temperature independent of cadence by using a wider bowl, and can lower both the heat content (which affects reaction speed) and alkaline chemicals by smoking a pipe that has a mechanism to remove moisture from the smoke stream. It doesn't help that I live in a very humid area so drying my tobacco doesn't do much, I can dry it to a crisp and it will re-humidify in minutes in the bowl.
 
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Mar 2, 2021
3,476
14,247
Alabama USA
it's probably a combination of things. combustion temperature affects the alkalinity of the smoke, some people simply can tolerate more alkalinity than others. the same is true with acidity, but our body chemistry is inherently biased towards acidity. drinking something seems to help, though what you drink matters. in my case I have a fissured tongue so I'm particularly prone to bite. but I can reduce tongue bite substantially by drinking coffee (hot is better) or lemonade (never tried it hot tbh) every few puffs. smoking slower helps lower combustion temperature but also lengthens the time the chemicals have in contact with my mouth, using a smaller bowl helps with that though. and I can lower combustion temperature independent of cadence by using a wider bowl, and can lower both the heat content (which affects reaction speed) and alkaline chemicals by smoking a pipe that has a mechanism to remove moisture from the smoke stream. It doesn't help that I live in a very humid area so drying my tobacco doesn't do much, I can dry it to a crisp and it will re-humidify in minutes in the bowl.
This is very good information. So, smaller bowl, maybe a match or soft flame to light, and a combination of slow cadence and low humidity, or as low as possible.
 

mparker762

Starting to Get Obsessed
Apr 1, 2021
112
624
Houston, TX
This is very good information. So, smaller bowl, maybe a match or soft flame to light, and a combination of slow cadence and low humidity, or as low as possible.
keep something acidic in your mouth to give the alkaline smoke something besides skin to react with. keep in mind that a smaller bowl means less caustic chemicals in your mouth, but typically means a narrower chamber which - all other factors being equal - causes hotter combustion temps, which means a more alkaline smoke.
 
Mar 2, 2021
3,476
14,247
Alabama USA
keep something acidic in your mouth to give the alkaline smoke something besides skin to react with. keep in mind that a smaller bowl means less caustic chemicals in your mouth, but typically means a narrower chamber which - all other factors being equal - causes hotter combustion temps, which means a more alkaline smoke.
Thank you again. All good reasons to consider what with and how to use a pipe.
 

bullet08

Lifer
Nov 26, 2018
8,932
37,913
RTP, NC. USA
Or, you could think a bit and enjoy it more...LOL!!
One word.. or is it two? I have no clue how they count word. 無心. Mushin. Mu, first character means empty, void, nothing.. Shin, second character means mind and so on. It's Japanese reading, phonically. In some school of thought, it's where learning begins. And pipe smoking is a great place to start. I surprised there isn't some School of Pipe Smoking Enlightenment in Asia somewhere.