Separated At Birth?

[georged]

...once you start to put large dollars and the notion of "art" and "creativity" and "soul", etc, etc into the mix we enter the highly subjective world of "collectibles" and there are a few definitions that are hugged like the life preservers that they are.

Indeed. Which makes some of the artworld's collecting peculiarities amusing for their inconsistency. Take coins. If it isn't wasn't vacuum sealed .0001 femtoseconds after minting, it isn't 100/100.
But an antique bronze lamp, sculpture, or similar bronze object is massively downgraded if its age-caused patina is detectably disturbed in any way, never mind that WITH the patina it looks nothing like it would have had it been sealed like a coin at the time it was made.
Funny stuff when you think about it.
As for Sasieni stems, I'm not sure what you are asking. (Meaning I don't see how one collectable brand is different than any other)
10-4 on ignoring claims of original stems. In hand, with magnification & etc, there are ways to tell with a high degree of certainty, but from photos---especially online photos---it can't be done.

 

[sablebrush52]

As for Sasieni stems, I'm not sure what you are asking. (Meaning I don't see how one collectable brand is different than any other)

Uniquely in the world of classic British pipes, values on Sasieni pipes, in no small measure, depend on whether the stem is a 1 Dot, an 8 Dot, or a 4 Dot. So if the stem is a replacement, and the artisan creates an 8 Dot, doesn't the fact of its being a replacement, rather than a factory original, matter?
And there is another wrinkle on Sasieni pipes. The successor owners released limited editions of Sasienis stamped with the old fishtail logo and the "specially selected" stamp. The stamp originally was applied to pipes that Joel Sasieni had personally selected from the production line as being of superior quality. These 1980's vintage pipes have no such provenance. These pipes show up on eBay from time to time, represented as pre-war "specially selected" pipes.
Collectibles are subject to different parameters. With regard to antique bronzes, the patina that develops over time is much prized by collectors, much like the rosy tint of a well smoked meerschaum. The age and history that such a patina represents is an integral part of the piece. Removing that patina robs the piece of its character and its history. Coins are subject to different requirements. Condition matters. But when a coin has been similarly cleaned up, it loses value just like a bronze. The alteration reduces value.
The problem with pipes happens when a seller lies about the condition of the pipe. Rather than saying that the pipes has been restored, for example, the seller claims that its current condition is its natural state. Cosmetically the pipe looks little used, but in reality it's had a busy working life. The buyer is not getting what he has been led to believe. The seller is perpetrating a fraud.
Marty Pulvers wrote about the problem with extreme restorations that make a used pipe look new, coupled with claims that the pipe is unsmoked. A 1920's era unsmoked cased Dunhill is going to be much more expensive than one that has been smoked even once.
As larger amounts of money chase rare and desirable pipes, fraud in the marketplace, both large and petty, are on the increase.

 

[ssjones]

So, a new pipe that is dropped while it is being boxed for shipping, gets put back through the line (so to speak) for a new stem, and ultimately leaves the company's premises intact is NOT a replacement; but a pipe whose stem is broken during shipment, returned to the shop, and "put back through the line" IS a replacement?

The reality is none of us would ever know this occurred and assume our stems are original.

That's why I like conventional retailers. They have some skin in the game.

The big estate resellers like Smoking Pipes are just as susceptible to being duped by pipes that have been modified from original as all the eBay sellers. Their estates come from trade-ins, etc and they generally have no idea as to the history of a particular piece. We have seen ads in SP that reference claims made in threads here, by our forum members - which are only repeated opinion. I've sent SP emails about an incorrect pipe listing. They do listen and correct their mistakes, when they can be substantiated. (just like some eBay sellers do). You will almost always get a great estate pipe from the well known estate sellers - but they cannot even guarantee originality.
The ebay seller in question here, is one of the current leading authorities on Peterson pipes, and sells some pretty valuable pieces. So it is unfortunate that this pipe clouds his reputation. He currently has listed a very unusual and rare Peterson. A month ago, I'd have been very interested in that particular pipe. Now, I will most likely be a spectator.

 

[zulucollector]

It's really not complicated. The point of this entire thread (and the blog post I made) is that the buyer deserves to have the same information that the seller has. If a seller withholds information or intentionally misrepresents condition, that seller is at fault. There is no rationalization for this behavior. Period.
I have a Sasieni Four Dot Viscount Lascelles that is a wonderful pipe. It was my first good pipe. It is a fantastic smoker. It has a replacement stem by Jack Howell that is easily much better than the original stem was, even when it was new. It smokes better and looks better. In my opinion, it improved an already wonderful pipe.
But it is NOT original, and I would bet that in most Sasieni collectors' eyes that it diminishes the value of this pipe. The fact that the replacement makes the pipe functionally and aesthetically better is beside the point. That I think it is better is my opinion. That I believe the Howell stem adds value is beside the point. It is not original. It is imperative, were I to sell the pipe, that I disclose that fact before the sale. Forget that it would be stupid of me not to do so because a savvy Sasieni collector would be able to tell it wasn't original.
In the world of collectible pipes, "Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware)" is the refuge of the scoundrel.

 

[gloucesterman]

This has truly been one of the better threads I have read in a long time. The subject is timely as more and more of this kind of shady behavior invades the marketplace. Well done folks. Definitions and standards go a long way toward establishing acceptable behavior. A lot of sellers would do well to read this thread.

 

[sablebrush52]

There are currently two bids on this pipe, raising the price to $610. Bid #1 came from a newbie. Bid #2 came from someone who collects lighters. The pipe collectors are not bidding, yet. I'll be curious to see the outcome. Is there an army of snipers, waiting in the shadows to shoot it out and drive the price into 4 figures?
Or did a number of others notice, as I did, that this pipe had been on the market a few scant weeks earlier and aren't into being scammed. Will this seller earn his retirement from the sale of this pipe? Will that pay for the sale of his credibility?
As for being an authority, the seller seems to be an authority on making up stuff.
Neill is correct. It is quite simple.

 

[ssjones]

As for being an authority, the seller seems to be an authority on making up stuff.

Expertise and credibility are mutually exclusive. I only pointed out his expertise because that the seller is as well respected for his Peterson knowledge as you are with Barlings. It is sad to see his reputation be diminished by his own hand.

 

[dmcmtk]

"...has survived in like new condition, probably seldom smoked."
Perhaps "Carefully restored and in excellent condition for it's age." would have been better, with some description of the tobacco chamber. I'm sure if some buyer was not satisfied, a return would be accepted. The fact that the seller bought the pipe in the UK, did the restoration (with whatever pros and cons involved), and is now re-selling it is a non-issue to me. Hyperbole in an ebay listing...I'm shocked, shocked. :wink:
Jesse, I have a question, do you think the stem is not a Barling's stem?

 

[dmcmtk]

Jesse, I have a question, do you think the stem is not a Barling's stem?

Okay, just re-read your earlier post, question answered.

 

[sablebrush52]

Hyperbole in an ebay listing...I'm shocked, shocked. :wink:

Hi Dave,
To me it's not hyperbole, it's deliberate misrepresentation. "Carefully restored" etc,etc, would have been honest and wouldn't have hurt the pipe's resale value, not to mention the seller's reputation. In fact, the story being added to this listing is a surprise for me because he's usually a "just the facts" sort of seller. The storytelling is a departure.
That we consider this kind of activity "eBay as usual" is a reflection on our perception that eBay is an amoral human cesspool. Still, it's useful to point out obvious frauds. An informed market is a safer market. Not safe, just safer.
I'd need to see other angles to decide if the stem is not of Barling manufacture. My thinking, based on the profile is that it's a Barling stem from a later period and not original as is claimed by the seller.
I don't accept claims that any vintage pipe's stem is "original". I dismiss them as flimflam. There's no way, short of a trail of evidence, to know that to be a fact. We generally accept on faith that the stem is original. And we're often wrong.

 

[beefeater33]

Once again, the seller does have this in his listing:

Every estate pipe we sell has been delicately reconditioned to bring it close to what it was like when new. Pipes described as unsmoked have been inspected and polished. Each pre-smoked pipe we offer, unless we state otherwise in the description above, has no condition issues and an original mouthpiece that is clean, polished, and free of tooth marks. The tobacco chamber has been reamed and polished so you may inspect the condition of the briar wall. The pipe you buy from us will arrive ready to smoke.

I guess he told the truth, then untold the truth........... :crazy:

 

[davet]

Well, it just cleared $1100

 

[georged]

For what it's worth (and mostly for lurkers who read this thread and are wondering if the sky is falling), know this: There isn't enough money in pipes for true counterfeiting to be a significant problem. Creating a fake that is able to fool experts takes a lot of time, and requires a level of skill that is much better put to use carving new pipes. It's a far better proposition financially, and has no risk. Or, simply apply it to some other collectable that DOES bring in the big bucks, like Civil War memorabilia or similar.
It is false CLAIMS that are the problem. In the corporate PayPal / Ebay sense there is virtually no risk to the seller as long as money is refunded and ignorance, a typo, etc. is made to look like the source of the problem.
The best approach when buying off Ebay is to ask someone who knows more than you do for their take on a particular item before doing the deal. I'd say fully half of false claims or other shenanigans are immediately obvious to all but the least experienced, and upwards of 90% can be spotted by true experts.

 

[buroak]

The best approach when buying off Ebay is to ask someone who knows more than you do for their take on a particular item before doing the deal. I'd say fully half of false claims or other shenanigans are immediately obvious to all but the least experienced, and upwards of 90% can be spotted by true experts.

Sound advice. Folks on this forum have helped me out on occasion.

 

[ssjones]

Well, that blows my $400 + estimate out of the water...

 

[georged]

Finished at $1104

 

[buroak]

A tidy profit, but at what long term cost?

 

[sablebrush52]

A tidy profit, but at what long term cost?

Sadly, probably nothing. A few people may have revised appraisals of the seller. A few customers may not give the seller any more trade. Most buyers will be blissfully ignorant. Clearly the seller doesn't care.
It's interesting that the collectors stayed away.

 

[misterlowercase]

Wow.
Sold for some good coin.

For the more demanding Barling collector here is a specimen worthy of your attention. Somehow this extremely rare gold-banded Barling from 1923 has survived in like new condition, probably seldom smoked. Its surface is without scratches or dings, its mouthpiece is original and flawless. (I believe in 1923 stems had no Barling logo. This mouthpiece's tenon has the appropriate "shoulder" and its lip is a roundish oval I have observed on other Barlings from the 1920s.)

"Every estate pipe we sell has been delicately reconditioned to bring it close to what it was like when new. "
I'm not too sure that the topping was done with "delicate" hands,

how many mm is gone?

If this pipe was fitted with a case, how obvious would the height difference be?

Based on the definitive language in the description,

I'd say it was a fraudulent listing,

especially because it wasn't given to the seller for consignment,

but actually bought by him.

He should have chosen his words much more carefully.

 

[sablebrush52]

Here's another view of the rim prior to topping:

Burns, chips, tapping dents. All removed through topping and handling marks reduced through shaping. Performing a restoration is fine. Claims that it's current state represents how it "survived" are not.
Something for those who collect vintage and antique pipes and are buying expensive pieces:
Pipes can be cleaned up to look spiffy on the outside, but removing evidence of heavy use from the mortise and airway is much less successful. Check out those areas with a light and look at the color of the wood. It it's darkly stained, the pipe has seen a lifetime of use and claims of being "unsmoked" or "barely smoked" are baloney.
It's not unreasonable to get what you paid for.