Separated At Birth?

[misterlowercase]

Home for lunch,

one of the benefits of working a local job for once...
...couldn't get this pipe out of my mind, perhaps it's the unusual name, and I like the Liverpoolish shape, no info online whatsoever regarding the MATURIAR, only multiple ebay robot feeder mime site.
Quick look in 1917 Tobacco Year Book, and it was listed.
Only other example I could dig up was this one,

and it is a stunner!

I wouldn't doubt that in today's market it might fetch $1,000+

The case is exquisite, and it also indicates MATURIAR was a regd. TM,

couldn't find it listed at via UK IPO though (they're woefully incomplete)...
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-barlings-maturiar-cased-pipe-305770082
A shame there's only one picture,

can't verify it was actually 1910 as described by the seller,

and the button remains unseen,

but indeed a most glorious pipe!

Unsmoked!
Fascinating stuff.

:puffpipe:

 

[okiescout]

But this is eBay, the land of dreams and cons, so some enthusiast, not very critical in his thinking, will buy the made up story and go for it.
Brush, those pics look like a ladies we have been discussing.
Is all this the product of photoshop or are the pipes really that cleaned up? It gives me chills when I think how many of us are not as experienced as you and some of the other guys here on the forum. This really cools me off on buying anything in this market with a big price tag for such "collectibles". Not that I feel like I can afford to buy $400 + pipe. Just do not want to get skinned on an on anything that is dishonest, for any amount.
I have ordered some books and am reading everything on the forum regarding this type of problem, but it is really a drag to have to constantly remember that "folks is folks" just like everywhere else.
Thanks so much you guys for your vigilance and taking the time to educate the rest of us.

 

[sablebrush52]

Is all this the product of photoshop or are the pipes really that cleaned up?

In the case of this seller, I think that the picts are legit. They do very nice restorations, on the level with Great Estates. I don't object to restorations when it amounts to minor tweaks or necessary repair. I object to misleading the customer.

 

[dmcmtk]

Pushed past the reserve, current bid $390. Also, as an aside, I have bought from this seller, and was very happy with what I got.

 

[sablebrush52]

With 8 days to go! I stand corrected with regard to the reserve. The listing has one bid and the bidder has 2 successful trades. Jumped in with a high bid. He's the perfect fish. Should be another entertaining eBay event.

 

[pipesmokingtom]

With the original purchase price of the pipe - should be a pretty good profit margin for the restorer.

 

[pipesmokingtom]

.... Errr "finder" of such a like-new pipe.

 

[ssjones]

I don't know, maybe it wont' hit my $400 prediction...

 

[zulucollector]

I hope that there is some explanation for this. I find it hard to believe that the seller would tarnish his reputation for a relatively small profit on a one-pipe flip sale. If that's the case, it just makes me very, very sad.
I've written a number of posts addressing undisclosed pipe remodeling and/or restoration, and have gotten no end of grief for my stated opinion that sellers are obliged to disclose any knowledge they have about previous and/or their own work on a pipe (of any kind). To withhold that information because it might affect a sales price is, in my opinion, unethical at the least and outright fraud at extremes. Given the prices that some pipes command these days among collectors, this is not an insignificant issue that may be excused or explained away.
Here is a post on the subject from December 2012:
http://passionforpipes.squarespace.com/neills-blog/2012/12/6/the-perils-of-pipe-remodeling-for-buyers-and-sellers.html

 

[buroak]

I think the Chinese market has affected eBay prices lately. A good time to be a buyer!

I suspect the same. I spoke with one of the estate pipe eBay "heavies" at the GKCPC show, and he told me that something like one in three pipes he sells goes to China.

 

[ssjones]

This did make me think of your blog entry Neill, I can't believe it was nearly three years ago.

 

[sablebrush52]

Neill, thanks for the link. Your article is a "must read" for anyone who is buying estate pipes. The discussion that follows is a worthy companion to your article. Buyers need to educate themselves in order not to fall prey to unscrupulous sellers, or sellers innocently selling a product about which they themselves are ignorant. The adage, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is." definitely applies here.

 

[georged]

Interesting situation regarding the Barling, and Neill's article expands on it nicely.
Please allow me to further twist things up a bit: :lol:
If a pipe's stem gets replaced by its original maker, in the same shop, using the same tools and materials as the original, is it a replacement stem in the "negatively affects the pipe's value" sense? (as opposed to the literal one)
If the answer is no---that the pipe is 100% authentic, its two parts were just made at different points in time---then what if a pipe's stem gets replaced by someone OTHER than its original maker, but the original maker cannot tell. He declares it to be his own work, in fact, until shown physical proof that it isn't... is THAT a "replacement" stem?
If you see no point in answering such questions because hypotheticals are weak foundations for argument, know that the second question is based on actual events.

 

[sablebrush52]

Here's my simple take n the matter, based on the word, "replacement". If the stem in not the one that was originally fitted to the pipe at the point when it left the manufacturer to be sold, or delivered, it's a replacement. It can be an oem factory made replacement or an artisan made replacement or whatever. It's not the original stem. Now whether that replacement should automatically qualify as a negative is arguable. One of my quaints came to me with a serviceable molded stem. I sent it to RonnieB who hand shaped a beautiful "Barling" stem that was a perfect extension of the lines of the pipe. It's every bit as good as a factory made Barling stem. Ronnie's shaping on that stem and button is correct and it functions like a Barling stem. I have another early '40's Barling sandblast that has an early '50's Barling stem on it.
In neither case do I believe that the stems constitute a negative. In the case of the Quaint, it's certainly an improvement.
But collectors have rules of combat, and in those rules it is stipulated that "everything original in mint condition" is the top grade. All other paths lead downward from there, with few exceptions. How much downward is the debate.

 

[mso489]

That's why I like conventional retailers. They have some skin in the game. They want to sell you a pipe today, whatever you can afford, but they want you back next month, and they want you in three years when you are ready for your "White Whale" pipe. It's a whole different attitude. They'd rather have you spend a lot over time rather than scam you for a few hundred bucks and have you sadder and wiser in a few days. I admire folks who can (mostly) get what they want off ebay, but it's not a game I'd enjoy. SP or Iwan Ries (or any of our sponsors) will stick with you over years. They prefer you happy, happy, happy.

 

[georged]

Here's my simple take n the matter, based on the word, "replacement". If the stem in not the one that was originally fitted to the pipe at the point when it left the manufacturer to be sold, or delivered, it's a replacement.

So, a new pipe that is dropped while it is being boxed for shipping, gets put back through the line (so to speak) for a new stem, and ultimately leaves the company's premises intact is NOT a replacement; but a pipe whose stem is broken during shipment, returned to the shop, and "put back through the line" IS a replacement?
Not trying to be argumentative, just striving for clarity.

 

[georged]

They prefer you happy, happy, happy.

For the record, I've dealt with Gary a number of times over the years, and came away with the feeling that's all he ever wanted.
I also spent some considerable time at a Chicago show in conversation with Max Capps, Gary's son, who did (and I assume still does) Gary's clean-ups & etc., and found him to be a singularly bright, talented, and motivated young man. Though integrity wasn't discussed, I definitely came away with the feeling he had such things well and properly figured out, too. That his dad had raised him well.
This Barling business makes no sense to me at all.

 

[sablebrush52]

So, a new pipe that is dropped while it is being boxed for shipping, gets put back through the line (so to speak) for a new stem, and ultimately leaves the company's premises intact is NOT a replacement; but a pipe whose stem is broken during shipment, returned to the shop, and "put back through the line" IS a replacement?

Well, I was allowing the factory or artisan a little wiggle room here as it also happens that pipemakers screw up the stem from time to time and have to do it over again. But if you want to nail it down tight, then it is a replacement if it isn't the original piece of WHATEVER that was attached to the stummel and shaped to it. At the same time, it could also be argued that this particular replacement is original equipment since it's leaving the factory with its other components for the first time. So does it matter? To me, no.
But if you're trying to suggest that the provenance of a "collectible" pipe and its components are of no import then I'll part company with you on that point. If you made the most perfect copy of a particular stem, it's a copy. You are not the original maker.
Do you have the right to put a white dot on a replacement stem for a Dunhill? Or, for that matter, the right to duplicate any registered or copyrighted logo as part of a recreation? Barling pipes are tarted up with fake stem stamps all the time. We tolerate much that is questionable in the practice of "restoration" including copyright infringement.
But to declare any well made, correctly executed replacement stem as less worthy than a battered, chewed, disease ridden original is silly.
But you know what? Collecting is silly. And when collectors are shelling out hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars on a rare or desirable whatsis they have a right to know what they are buying and to decide for themselves whether or not to plunk down that cash. They have a right not to be fed made up stories or be presented with rationalized fraud.
If I'm going to plunk down $500,000 for a Picasso, I want it to be a Pablo Picasso, not a Sam Picasso.

 

[georged]

But if you're trying to suggest that the provenance of a "collectible" pipe and its components are of no import then I'll part company with you on that point.

I wasn't trying to suggest anything. I just wanted some clarification of your definition of original, because there's more gray area than meets the eye once you start to break it down.
I suppose the squirmy-ness is because pipes are like cars, musical instruments, or any other collectables that have components which are designed to wear out. Brake shoes, tires, belts, hoses, strings, frets, valve pads, etc. With pipes, it is stems. Indeed, until modern collecting began, pipes themselves were considered disposable. You'd run through a few stems until the bowl cracked or met with some accident, and then buy another.
Interesting: because the tires and related are made of rubber, they are never original on cars past a certain age. It oxidizes and/or wears away until it fails. I wonder if at some future time whether a pipe's stem will be considered the same way.

 

[sablebrush52]

I suppose the squirmy-ness is because pipes are like cars, musical instruments, or any other collectables that have components which are designed to wear out. Brake shoes, tires, belts, hoses, strings, frets, valve pads, etc. With pipes, it is stems.

Agreed. And a well made stem should be no less of an asset for being a replacement. As you said, once upon a time, pipes were just tools, and the idea of collectible artisan pipes was nonexistent. But once you start to put large dollars and the notion of "art" and "creativity" and "soul", etc, etc into the mix we enter the highly subjective world of "collectibles" and there are a few definitions that are hugged like the life preservers that they are.
Going back to stems, should a replacement one dot Sasieni stem, or 8 dot stem affect the value of that particular pipe?
For what it's worth, I ignore seller claims of "original" stems with old estates. There's no honest way to prove that.