Seconds. What exactly are they?

[hoipolloiglasgow]

My widest bowl pipe, 1920’s Barling’s. Merde de Cheval belongs in a wider bowl with so many components.

 

[hoipolloiglasgow]

My widest bowl pipe, 1920’s Barling’s. Merde de Cheval belongs in a wider bowl with so many components.View attachment 354001

Shit. Wrong thread.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I’m not sure the Montecristo aspect of your reasoning applies here; it’s my understanding that the Montecristo pipes were commissioned by the Montecristo cigar company—these were probably done when Rossi was still owned by Rossi. These weren’t really a second of Rossi; they were made by Rossi for Montecristo.

There’s an amorphous, grey area with this whole seconds and brand division with Savinelli now owning Rossi. Rossi, when it was just Rossi, had hundreds of possible shapes available for sale or manufacture at one time. As @Chasing Embers mentioned, Savinelli saved the brand from disappearing into the land of obscurity around 1985. The name lives on, but the pipes in the lineup are now Savinelli shapes. Are they Rossi pipes? They’re stamped as such, so, yes. Are they Savinelli pipes? Yes, but this is where the lines blur. If the quality of the briar was better, they would be sold for more under the Savinelli brand. Are they seconds? If you think of them as a Savinelli pipe, maybe. But, don’t brands exist that don’t put out premium pipes? If you look at Rossi pipes on their own, they’re not necessarily seconds. @karam probably had it right and you and the person you were arguing with are both right.

Pipedia lists them as Rossi seconds. You should probably let them know they goofed.

Kind of. It varies based on the policy of the individual company. With the two companies I mentioned above it was about the cosmetic quality of the briar.
The Preben Holm made Ben Wades are not seconds. Herman Lane used the Ben Wade name, which he owned, to reintroduce the brand. Later, Holm made pipes under his own name. And, his seconds had fills.
I own one of the Preben Ben Wades and there’s nothing second about it.

It's the other way around. Preben Holm made pipes under his own name, then switched to making them under the Ben Wade logo for Lane, and he also improved the quality at Lane's insistence. A typical Preben Holm made Ben Wade is almost certainly a better quality pipe than a typical pre-Ben Wade Preben Holm branded pipe.

A Holm made Ben Wade is on my short list of brands to acquire soon.

The human brain is mysterious. We want to categorize and pigeonhole everything. And, when we see something pigeonholed wrongly according to our world view, we become confused or get cognitive dissonance.

Seconds is a term developed by the consumers, not necessarily the companies. So, trying to fit brands or lines into this seconds category is not going to work.

Whoa! Let's leave logic and common sense at the door. How else are we supposed to keep things interesting around here? You keep acting all rational and people will start calling you a codger.

Things were much simpler when the companies just threw away crappy briar and only had four grades.

 

[OzPiper]

Things were much simpler when the companies just threw away crappy briar and only had four grades.

Please correct me if I’m wrong
Back in the Patent era (pre-mid 1970s) of Stanwell, they only had one grade (that I am aware of)
Then in the ‘70s their marketing department had the “brilliant“ (NOT !) idea of multiple lines.
As well as a multitude of lines of seconds

It’s so confusing that I doubt even the Stanwell head office knows what’s what
I have searched, but can’t find a list of the hierarchy and grading of their multitude of lines and seconds

 

[PLANofMAN]

Please correct me if I’m wrong
Back in the Patent era (pre-mid 1970s) of Stanwell, they only had one grade (that I am aware of)
Then in the ‘70s their marketing department had the “brilliant“ (NOT !) idea of multiple lines.
As well as a multitude of lines of seconds

It’s so confusing that I doubt even the Stanwell head office knows what’s what
I have searched, but can’t find a list of the hierarchy and grading of their multitude of lines and seconds

Stanwell's 1950's era catalog price list, showing the 9 different grades used:

That was before they started all the various 'lines' of pipes.

 

[sablebrush52]

Pipedia lists them as Rossi seconds. You should probably let them know they goofed.

It's the other way around. Preben Holm made pipes under his own name, then switched to making them under the Ben Wade logo for Lane, and he also improved the quality at Lane's insistence. A typical Preben Holm made Ben Wade is almost certainly a better quality pipe than a typical pre-Ben Wade Preben Holm branded pipe.

A Holm made Ben Wade is on my short list of brands to acquire soon.

Whoa! Let's leave logic and common sense at the door. How else are we supposed to keep things interesting around here? You keep acting all rational and people will start calling you a codger.

Things were much simpler when the companies just threw away crappy briar and only had four grades.

Yep, got that one bass ackwards.

Here's my Preben Holm Ben Wade. Nothing "second" about this one. Straight grain for miles on vertical surfaces, tight birdseye on the horizontal surfaces. Every bit of grain figure is maximized.

 

[buroak]

Sometimes the line between sub-brand and second can be devilishly blurry. I’m thinking of John Peel pipes. They were a Barling brand I have seen called seconds, but they are very distinctive from Barling pipes. The shape range seems have been far narrower, for one thing. For another, the rims are dramatically funneled. To call the rims beveled is a gross understatement.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Yep, got that one bass ackwards.

Here's my Preben Holm Ben Wade. Nothing "second" about this one. Straight grain for miles on vertical surfaces, tight birdseye on the horizontal surfaces. Every bit of grain figure is maximized.

Here's my English made Ben Wade. I assume some defect downgraded it from a Charatan Executive to a Ben Wade Giant, and resulted in the rustication of the bottom and shank. It's a stunning pipe regardless. Kaywoodie Red Root billiard for size reference.
I call it my "Not a Dublin, Dublin," as the chamber is not tapered. I only wish that they had left the plateaux on.

Oddly, the entire pipe was polished, then rusticated after the fact, judging by the bits of polished wood scattered throughout the rustication. I imagine this pipe got thrown across the shop at least once, and certainly upset at least one pipemaker, and is without a doubt a "second," regardless of how these sorts of things are judged.

It's far and away one of the finest pipes in my small collection.

 

[sablebrush52]

Here's my English made Ben Wade. I assume some defect downgraded it from a Charatan Executive to a Ben Wade Giant, and resulted in the rustication of the bottom and shank. It's a stunning pipe regardless. Kaywoodie Red Root billiard for size reference.View attachment 354073View attachment 354074
I call it my "Not a Dublin, Dublin," as the chamber is not tapered. I only wish that they had left the plateaux on.

Oddly, the entire pipe was polished, then rusticated after the fact, judging by the bits of polished wood scattered throughout the rustication. I imagine this pipe got thrown across the shop at least once, and certainly upset at least one pipemaker, and is without a doubt a "second," regardless of how these sorts of things are judged.

It's far and away one of the finest pipes in my small collection.

My English Ben Wades are all Leeds and superb smokers.

 

[sablebrush52]

Sometimes the line between sub-brand and second can be devilishly blurry. I’m thinking of John Peel pipes. They were a Barling brand I have seen called seconds, but they are very distinctive from Barling pipes. The shape range seems have been far narrower, for one thing. For another, the rims are dramatically funneled. To call the rims beveled is a gross understatement.

The John Peel pipes were a separate line honoring the popular radio personality. They were one of Imperial’s attempts to appeal to a wider demographic.

 

[sardonicus87]

Reducing a situation to its essentials and arriving at well-reasoned conclusions is NOT allowed around here, Cosmic. This is an Internet forum.

Now, rap your knuckles with a ruler and go stand in the corner for five minutes as a reminder to stop engaging in such behavior, OK?

Boy oh boy, I've lately been starting to think hairsplitting/pedantry with micro-blades and microscopes was a requirement of being a pipe smoker. Honestly sometimes it's extremely grating to me. I just keep my mouth shut and move on.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Boy oh boy, I've lately been starting to think hairsplitting/pedantry with micro-blades and microscopes was a requirement of being a pipe smoker. Honestly sometimes it's extremely grating to me. I just keep my mouth shut and move on.

That would be the shaving forums. If you think pipe smokers are bad, they have nothing on the razor blade holder crowd.

 

[PLANofMAN]

My English Ben Wades are all Leeds and superb smokers.

Yeah, mine is not (made in Leeds). I've heard that the Leeds made pipes were absolutely superb.

 

[bullet08]

Seconds, in this market, is for something that doesn't meet the manufacturer's definition of their standards. Now, most of them would be some cosmetic issues. But like any pipes, how it will smoke won't be obvious until someone smokes it. Typically, badly drilled stummel won't be sold, or at least shouldn't be sold. But it happens. If the stummel is so badly drilled it won't pass inspection, and pipe manufacturers worth their penny won't sell them.

 

[sablebrush52]

Yeah, mine is not (made in Leeds). I've heard that the Leeds made pipes were absolutely superb.

What surprised me was the openness of the draw, a bit more open than other British pipes of the period. They are very easy to smoke.

 

[buroak]

The John Peel pipes were a separate line honoring the popular radio personality. They were one of Imperial’s attempts to appeal to a wider demographic.

That I had never heard. I had always thought the brand much older.

That would explain the different and limited shape options. Perhaps, then, the strange rims were meant to aid new pipe smokers in scooping tobacco from roll-up pouch packaging?

 

[sablebrush52]

That I had never heard. I had always thought the brand much older.

That would explain the different and limited shape options. Perhaps, then, the strange rims were meant to aid new pipe smokers in scooping tobacco from roll-up pouch packaging?

Dunno. IIRC, these were offered in the 1970's.

 

[pappymac]

Talk about semantics!
In my opinion, there is a difference between seconds (pipes determined to have "flaws") and secondary brands of pipes made by brand.

I've always heard that Rossi were a secondary Brand made by Savinelli and not rejected stummels that have been finished anyway and stamped with a different names. I think when the Savinelli carvers find a piece of briar not up to the quality of a Punta Oro they just stamp it with a different line name like Oscar for example.

 

[Sobrbiker]

Talk about semantics!
In my opinion, there is a difference between seconds (pipes determined to have "flaws") and secondary brands of pipes made by brand.

I've always heard that Rossi were a secondary Brand made by Savinelli and not rejected stummels that have been finished anyway and stamped with a different names. I think when the Savinelli carvers find a piece of briar not up to the quality of a Punta Oro they just stamp it with a different line name like Oscar for example.

Perhaps.
I’m not an Italian pipe pro by any means, but it seems Rossis for the most part are the same shape as their Savinelli “counterparts”, with an extra “8” up front. This makes me think they may be either a cheaper briar cut on same machines, or a QC grading.
I’d think perhaps the former..,