Seconds. What exactly are they?

[PLANofMAN]

I've gotten myself in a heated discussion with a fellow on Facebook (I know, I know), about Rossi pipes.

I consider them to be a Savenelli second, and assumed that everyone else did as well.

Not this fellow. Quote from him follows:

"The seconds pipes are usually pulled for shitty drilling, or other flaws after they inspect the finished product. Look up Irish seconds, they are all just finished peterson lines that didn't pass final inspection.

Rossi's are Savinelli stummels that didn't look as good grain wise or have some fills, they slap some thick lacquer on em and call them Rossi. Still drilled and made exactly like Savinellis. They used to be the unfinished Series iii line, but then they bought Rossi."

To me, that Rossi description sounds exactly like a second, or at least what I've thought was a second. His definition of what he considers a second sounds more like a basket pipe to me.

Now I've been going through life thinking that Charatan made Ben Wade pipes were Charatan seconds, Parker were Dunhill seconds, Royal Guard and Royal Danish were Stanwell seconds, etc.

Have I been mislead in thinking that lower grade sub-brands are not in fact considered main brand seconds? What say you?

 

[karam]

I think you’re both correct in a way. Seconds don’t need to have shitty drilling or unpleasant grain, but they may do. I’d imagine there is a threshold to what “shitty drilling” means, if it’s just a bit off and not compromising the smoking or structural integrity of the pipe then it could be a Rossi, if it’s really bad then it probably will be a basket pipe or just sold to the briar cutters to fuel briar cooking.

 

[sablebrush52]

Seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, etc are pipes made by makers that don't quite fit their metric for a first. Generally this is because the quality of briar, the grain figure, need for fills, etc, aren't of the same level, and makers downstream lesser quality briar rather than consigning them to the furnace. Comoy had a number of lesser lines of pipes, all well made but not of the same briar quality as their firsts, same with Sasieni. Check out Pipedia to learn more.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I should probably post the whole conversation, so there isn't any confusion. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't barking up the wrong tree. I already know I sound like a pompous asshole.

 

[Chasing Embers]

I've seen Punto Oro's with fills, I say let it go. They're just pipes.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I've seen Punto Oro's with fills, I say let it go. They're just pipes.

I've got a few firsts with fills too.

I guess it just boils down to if a brand makes a pipe shape that's identical in every respect to the main brand in a sub brand, it's a second, Rossi being a textbook example of this. Royal Danish being another.

If the sub brand features different shapes than the main brand, it's not a "second," but a sub brand only.

 

[sablebrush52]

Kind of. It varies based on the policy of the individual company. With the two companies I mentioned above it was about the cosmetic quality of the briar.
The Preben Holm made Ben Wades are not seconds. Herman Lane used the Ben Wade name, which he owned, to reintroduce the brand. Later, Holm made pipes under his own name. And, his seconds had fills.
I own one of the Preben Ben Wades and there’s nothing second about it.

 

[Sigmund]

If a Ser Jacopo has a fill it becomes a La Fuma. Some are subtle some are pretty glaring. Ive a few and the smoke as well as the others. Ive no big issue with seconds if they are not done badly. Sure, I prefer no fills but if the fill is small and I can get a 400 dollar pipe for less than half I will adjust.

 

[OzPiper]

Comoy was one of THE Britwood brands and back in the day, the top of their line was the Specimen Straight Grain.

Any potential Specimen Straight Grains found to have a fill or a pit was downgraded to Special Straight Grain or Select Straight Grain and would not be accorded the “Comoy” stamp or “3-part C” emblem.

I have a couple - you need a magnifying glass to spot the fill(s).
They far surpass the only Blue Riband I have

Comoy Special Straight Grain

I have come across 2nds stamped “Reject”
Nothing wrong with the drilling and smoke ability

 

[Chasing Embers]

I've got a few firsts with fills too.

I guess it just boils down to if a brand makes a pipe shape that's identical in every respect to the main brand in a sub brand, it's a second, Rossi being a textbook example of this. Royal Danish being another.

If the sub brand features different shapes than the main brand, it's not a "second," but a sub brand only.

Rossi used to be their own brand but Savinelli bought them when they were about to go under. Some of Savinelli's shapes have never been used by Rossi but still not worth getting unwound over.

 

[Hillcrest]

I don't consider sub-brands and less expensive lines as seconds as all companies have their best pipes then less expensive lines. A second is a pipe with some cosmetic flaw that was sufficient for some i inspector to remove it from production and not put the company's full branding on it. For example Savinelli's fiammata series has about 7 levels and is considered by some to be a second of the Giubilio d'oro... but its not ... it is its own series/line. Those stummels that didn't become G d;oro went to the fiammata line. Thats not the same as saying we're not putting our name on this its going in a basket.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Rossi used to be their own brand but Savinelli bought them when they were about to go under. Some of Savinelli's shapes have never been used by Rossi but still not worth getting unwound over.

After going through a bit of research, I did come to the conclusion that Rossi weren't seconds, mostly because it's clear that Savenelli doesn't consider them seconds (even though most pipe brands would consider them a secondary line).

That, and Pipedia says Montechristo pipes are Rossi seconds. Hard to call Rossi a second when it has it's own dedicated seconds.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

After going through a bit of research, I did come to the conclusion that Rossi weren't seconds, mostly because it's clear that Savenelli doesn't consider them seconds (even though most pipe brands would consider them a secondary line).

That, and Pipedia says Montechristo pipes are Rossi seconds. Hard to call Rossi a second when it has it's own dedicated seconds.

I’m not sure the Montecristo aspect of your reasoning applies here; it’s my understanding that the Montecristo pipes were commissioned by the Montecristo cigar company—these were probably done when Rossi was still owned by Rossi. These weren’t really a second of Rossi; they were made by Rossi for Montecristo.

There’s an amorphous, grey area with this whole seconds and brand division with Savinelli now owning Rossi. Rossi, when it was just Rossi, had hundreds of possible shapes available for sale or manufacture at one time. As @Chasing Embers mentioned, Savinelli saved the brand from disappearing into the land of obscurity around 1985. The name lives on, but the pipes in the lineup are now Savinelli shapes. Are they Rossi pipes? They’re stamped as such, so, yes. Are they Savinelli pipes? Yes, but this is where the lines blur. If the quality of the briar was better, they would be sold for more under the Savinelli brand. Are they seconds? If you think of them as a Savinelli pipe, maybe. But, don’t brands exist that don’t put out premium pipes? If you look at Rossi pipes on their own, they’re not necessarily seconds. @karam probably had it right and you and the person you were arguing with are both right.

 

[telescopes]

A second - it is a pipe that the manufacture has made the decision to not put their name on although they made it. Parker and Hardcastle were their own lines but in no way seconds. It would be like calling a Chevy a second because it isn't a Cadillac. Or a better example a Mercury or a Ford a second to a Lincoln, even though many times the same car with modifications was sold by each of the brands. Quality standards may be lowered for various reasons, but the ability of a second in terms of pipes is, in my experience, never really impacts the pipe's smoking ability. Generally, it all comes down to fils or other imperfections in the briar. My Sasieni second, a 739, smokes like a dream. Only the number 739 and its shape identify that it came from Sasieni. It was a basket pipe.

 

[telescopes]

I’m not sure the Montecristo aspect of your reasoning applies here; it’s my understanding that the Montecristo pipes were commissioned by the Montecristo cigar company—these were probably done when Rossi was still owned by Rossi. These weren’t really a second of Rossi; they were made by Rossi for Montecristo.

There’s an amorphous, grey area with this whole seconds and brand division with Savinelli now owning Rossi. Rossi, when it was just Rossi, had hundreds of possible shapes available for sale or manufacture at one time. As @Chasing Embers mentioned, Savinelli saved the brand from disappearing into the land of obscurity around 1985. The name lives on, but the pipes in the lineup are now Savinelli shapes. Are they Rossi pipes? They’re stamped as such, so, yes. Are they Savinelli pipes? Yes, but this is where the lines blur. If the quality of the briar was better, they would be sold for more under the Savinelli brand. Are they seconds? If you think of them as a Savinelli pipe, maybe. But, don’t brands exist that don’t put out premium pipes? If you look at Rossi pipes on their own, they’re not necessarily seconds. @karam probably had it right and you and the person you were arguing with are both right.

Agreed. If a maker is putting their brand on a pipe, although the briar may come from a different division, that pipe is not a second. For me, seconds generally are no named pipes whose origins came from a specific factory brand but for whatever reason were sold unbranded.

 

[Sigmund]

True and what makes a second a second is determined by the pipe maker. French pipes tend to have lots of fills...at least older ones. If a Ser jac has a fill its a second. Of course most French makers dont charge what SJ asks. A lot of it is left to brand expectation.

 

[anotherbob]

I've seen Punto Oro's with fills, I say let it go. They're just pipes.

and if you want to be a touch more honest about it. They're just pipes that for whatever reason the maker doesn't want to call by the name of the main brand.
Love how some rare brands have grading and pricing schemes that match the whole 1st and 2nd lines but have the same basic principal under the same marque.

 

[PaulTheScandinavian]

/ a side note concernig on Stanwells, their Royal Guard / Royal Prince line are not factory seconds , quite the opposite, whereas Royal Danish line are lower graded pipes

 

[cosmicfolklore]

The human brain is mysterious. We want to categorize and pigeonhole everything. And, when we see something pigeonholed wrongly according to our world view, we become confused or get cognitive dissonance.

Seconds is a term developed by the consumers, not necessarily the companies. So, trying to fit brands or lines into this seconds category is not going to work.

 

[georged]

The human brain is mysterious. We want to categorize and pigeonhole everything. And, when we see something pigeonholed wrongly according to our world view, we become confused or get cognitive dissonance.

Seconds is a term developed by the consumers, not necessarily the companies. So, trying to fit brands or lines into this seconds category is not going to work.

Reducing a situation to its essentials and arriving at well-reasoned conclusions is NOT allowed around here, Cosmic. This is an Internet forum.

Now, rap your knuckles with a ruler and go stand in the corner for five minutes as a reminder to stop engaging in such behavior, OK?