Sasieni Date / Patent Clarification

[bayareabriar]

I’m selling a pipe on ebay and have it advertised as circa 1948. This is because of the presence of a patent number, but Sasieni the “newer / non fishtail” script. Also, the size and color of the dots play a factor.

I have been told that Ruff Root wasn’t patented until 1960 and was shown the US patent of 1960 for “Ruff Root”.

I told the potential buyer I would ask the community their thoughts on the date of this one. Note: the stinger is missing.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[sablebrush52]

I’m selling a pipe on ebay and have it advertised as circa 1948. This is because of the presence of a patent number, but Sasieni the “newer / non fishtail” script. Also, the size and color of the dots play a factor.

I have been told that Ruff Root wasn’t patented until 1960 and was shown the US patent of 1960 for “Ruff Root”.

I told the potential buyer I would ask the community their thoughts on the date of this one. Note: the stinger is missing.

Any help is appreciated.

The patents which you are thinking of, which ended in 1950, are not this one. Lots of things can be patents or registrations such as design improvements, trademarks, etc. To know what this patent refers to you will need to do a bit of a search, or perhaps ask Jon Guss, who has done some serious research in the area of patents. Make sure that you have the entire number.

All that said, you're probably not far off.

 

[bayareabriar]

The patents which you are thinking of, which ended in 1950, are not this one. Lots of things can be patents or registrations such as design improvements, trademarks, etc. To know what this patent refers to you will need to do a bit of a search, or perhaps ask Jon Guss, who has done some serious research in the area of patents. Make sure that you have the entire number.

Thank you. PAT. No 150221/20

 

[sablebrush52]

Thank you. PAT. No 150221/20

OK then, pre 1950.

 

[bayareabriar]

OK then, pre 1950.

Yeah, that’s why I came up with 1948 because of that and the style of Sasieni font. But the potential buyer is advising ruff root was not out that early to their knowledge.

 

[sablebrush52]

Yeah, that’s why I came up with 1948 because of that and the style of Sasieni font. But the potential buyer is advising ruff root was not out that early to their knowledge.

So, the potential buyer needs a date for this pipe? Is he simple in the head?

 

[sablebrush52]

Point your simple in the head potential buyer to this Smoking Pipes Ruff Root offering which they date at the earliest to 1946.

https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=362815

Personally, I don't know how the date range was obtained, or even if, this information is worth spit, but that doesn't matter. Your simple in the head potential buyer needs reassurance and this should help.

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

So, the potential buyer needs a date for this pipe? Is he simple in the head?

I find they often are…. Dunning Kruger in full effect.

 

[bayareabriar]

I appreciate the time and effort. There’s always some parts I can learn for myself too. But when there is any doubt, it’s sometimes best to get some backing/info from the community. Thank you again!

 

[bayareabriar]

I find they often are…. Dunning Kruger in full effect.

I like to refer to this as the Ricky Bobby effect. “I’m the best there ever was, I wake up in the morning and piss excellent”. Ahaha.

 

[Stonemonk]

Dear Sable,

How do you explain the contrast between the 1960 Patent for the Ruff-Root finish and the 1946 or 1947 date for the ending of the 150221/2 patent? Further checking the Smokingpipes "description" doesn't help at all. Their range of 1946-79 could mean the pipe was made after 1960. So that solves nothing. The third possibility is that a 1946 stem was fitted onto a 1960s bowl and shank at some point during the pipe's transmission. Not likely, but also not impossible. The only way to solve this with certainty is to find a Ruff-Root patent in England that predates 1946. Not so simple, eh? Does anyone on this Forum have a pipe like the one being discussed? That would also be evidential.

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

I like to refer to this as the Ricky Bobby effect. “I’m the best there ever was, I wake up in the morning and piss excellent”. Ahaha.

In the words of the late, great Col. Sanders- I’m too drunk to taste this chicken…

 

[bayareabriar]

A different buyer / Sasieni collector purchased it and understood the patent date and time period. I appreciate everyone’s input.

 

[sablebrush52]

How do you explain the contrast between the 1960 Patent for the Ruff-Root finish and the 1946 or 1947 date for the ending of the 150221/2 patent?

Quantum entanglement?

 

[RustiePyles CPG]

Quantum entanglement?

Only if the angle of the dangle is proportion to the heat of the meat.

 

[skydog]

The only way to solve this with certainty is to find a Ruff-Root patent in England that predates 1946. Not so simple, eh?

Or find an example like the one posted of stampings and patent that match for an earlier date than 1960. Pretty simple! Mind blowing to think that a pipe company in the 40s would use a name for a finish before they patented it, I know

A different buyer / Sasieni collector purchased it and understood the patent date and time period. I appreciate everyone’s input.

Couldn't be a happier ending than someone who knows what they're looking at ending up with the pipe!

 

[Stonemonk]

Congratulations on selling the pipe to someone who "understood the patent date and time period." But what does that mean? What is it that he understood? I'm interested in the history of Sasieni's and the contrast remains between the ending of the copyright date of 150221/2 in 1947 and the Ruff-Root patent of 1959-60 (application-granting). Did your buyer explain that? If the pipe is genuinely a "circa 1948" pipe, then maybe someone on this Forum can show us a British Ruff-Root patent from 1948 or earlier. Or several other pipes with the same "contradictory patents." Otherwise, this discussion was completely pointless and unnecessarily snarky.

 

[bayareabriar]

I think that’s excellent you’re interested in the history. It’s one of the things I appreciate about pipe collecting.

 

[Lemuel Pitkin]

Well, I'm missing something here. I've read this thread over a few times, have gone to Pipedia and Pipephil, Hacker's account in his book, and just plain googled "When did Sasieni's Ruff Root finish first appear": the AI answer (I guess), was 1986. REBORN PIPES shows a couple they worked on dated to the mid-'40s. I have three Sasienis bearing the same patent number as shown here (150221/20), a one-dot 101XXL panel (walnut in color, identical to a Dunhill ODA 836), a Rustic KIng Size Billiard stamped with a B and with 4 tiny blue dots, and a Rustic King Size 8-sided panel stamped with a G, and the same tiny blue dots. (The one-dot was owned, I believe,by John Loring and can be seen on his website.) I have no Ruff Roots, so all this info may be totally irrelevant, except to show that the patent date is old (and I guess the/20 would make that obvious). Anyway, I was under the impression that the patent numbers disappeared by 1950, so where does a 1960 patent number for the Ruff Root come into play? I guess the finish could have been patented (really? Years after all other pipe makers produced a sandblast? Pipephil shows a billiard with what appears to be sandblasted (to my eyes) by Sasieni dating @ 1920s) Anyway, the question I'm having is I can't seem to bring the dates of stamped patents numbers in line with a 1960 patent date. Any when did the Ruff Root appear (I didn't see it listed in the 1935 catalogue)? Help!

 

[sablebrush52]

A great way to find information is to subscribe to a newspaper archive service and search for advertisements. For example, that’s how I learned that Barling’s “maturiar” stamp referred to a particular stain they used in the 1920’s.