Samhain

[Sam Gamgee]

Almost everything that we think about "druidry" has been written since the 18th century. The earliest claim to a documented druidic order is 1717, and that one's disputed -- the earliest undisputed claim is 1792.

That is not to say that there are no ancient uses of the word. There are a small handful, but they tell us almost nothing about the referent. Tacitus, writing around AD 61, records a Roman attack on "druids" at Anglesey. But he tells us nothing about them except that they spoke "dreadful imprecations."

The few ancient references lead us to think that they may have been judges and record keepers.

By the 7th century, there were a few "bards" using the term, but whether they had institutional continuity with the group briefly referenced in earlier documents, the historical record does not answer for us.

At any rate, historians are confident that there is no institutional continuity with the orders created in the 18th century.

Although almost everything we think about "druidry" (if that is even an accurate term for anything that existed in antiquity) is conjecture (charitably) -- including whether or not druids were religious figures -- nevertheless we are safe in making some general assumptions about their religious beliefs, since paganism has always been pantheistic and usually taken very similar forms across the world.

A blessed All Saints Day to all.

I really enjoy the hints CS Lewis makes to these ancient people in THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH. He even called his Merlin character an “old Druid.”

The little hints he gives of life in old pagan Britain are pretty fascinating and I always wish he’d have elaborated more. He was a studied medievalist and could surely talk all day about little details that most of us interested in human history would have very much enjoyed.

But some of the hints he gave at old practices were enough to chill the blood a bit (e.g. folk mixing babies blood in the mortar of their houses to stave off evil spirits). He alluded to little overgrown mossy places with kings no one has ever heard of, eyes peering out of the dank darkness, etc. Quite eery and fascinating at the same time. All very “wild” in the original sense.

 

[SBC]

I really enjoy the hints CS Lewis makes to these ancient people in THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH. He even called his Merlin character an “old Druid.”

The little hints he gives of life in old pagan Britain are pretty fascinating and I always wish he’d have elaborated more. He was a studied medievalist and could surely talk all day about little details that most of us interested in human history would have very much enjoyed.

But some of the hints he gave at old practices were enough to chill the blood a bit (e.g. folk mixing babies blood in the mortar of their houses to stave off evil spirits). He alluded to little overgrown mossy places with kings no one has ever heard of, eyes peering out of the dank darkness, etc. Quite eery and fascinating at the same time. All very “wild” in the original sense.

St. Clive knew the power of allusions that went to the edge -- or imagined just past the edge -- of what he himself could know, yet hinted at knowing much more. He did this both with the Divine (not only in the Ransom Trilogy but elsewhere, e.g. Great Divorce, Weight of Glory, etc.), and also with the culture of Old Logres. When he did this with Logres he was doing something similar to what makes Tolkien so compelling -- giving the impression of touching the tip of a very large iceberg of historical depth. (Although, unlike Lewis, Tolkien actually developed much of that historical depth in other writings, so that his passing allusions were not just illusory.)

But as regards what we're calling "druidry" (and Lewis -- who specialized in the middle ages much more than in antiquity -- would have admitted that he was playing with some 18th and 19th century fake-lore, there, while also working with what we all know about the fairly unbiquitous ancient paganism), the most fascinating thing that he does is play with the possibility that, before the arrival of Christianity in a place, perhaps there was some category of what we'd call magic that was -- while not fully licit, not yet fully illicit either. Something that may have been barely lawful then, which became unlawful afterwards.

Whether or not he seriously entertained that possibility, or used it only as an avenue for fiction, I couldn't say. But if he entertained the possibility, then perhaps what he had in mind was the idea that Yahweh set gods over regions (c.r. Deut. 32:8 w/ Dan. 10:12-14), and perhaps even that certain angels were assigned to certain natural elements and functions (which would explain many animistic beliefs), and that if not all these gods and angels fell, then perhaps there was some early interaction with them with regard to the natural world that was licit until man grew into his intended dominion, to replace angels in these roles, with the advent of Christianity.

But this is enormously (and dangerously) speculative. Just one of the most intruiging things that Lewis does with "druidism"/Merlin in THS.

 

[chilllucky]

If knowing this much arcana about literature and religious history is where the bar is set for "widened pipe smoker" I may have to switch to cigars...

 

[Sam Gamgee]

St. Clive knew the power of allusions that went to the edge -- or imagined just past the edge -- of what he himself could know, yet hinted at knowing much more. He did this both with the Divine (not only in the Ransom Trilogy but elsewhere, e.g. Great Divorce, Weight of Glory, etc.), and also with the culture of Old Logres. When he did this with Logres he was doing something similar to what makes Tolkien so compelling -- giving the impression of touching the tip of a very large iceberg of historical depth. (Although, unlike Lewis, Tolkien actually developed much of that historical depth in other writings, so that his passing allusions were not just illusory.)

But as regards what we're calling "druidry" (and Lewis -- who specialized in the middle ages much more than in antiquity -- would have admitted that he was playing with some 18th and 19th century fake-lore, there, while also working with what we all know about the fairly unbiquitous ancient paganism), the most fascinating thing that he does is play with the possibility that, before the arrival of Christianity in a place, perhaps there was some category of what we'd call magic that was -- while not fully licit, not yet fully illicit either. Something that may have been barely lawful then, which became unlawful afterwards.

Whether or not he seriously entertained that possibility, or used it only as an avenue for fiction, I couldn't say. But if he entertained the possibility, then perhaps what he had in mind was the idea that Yahweh set gods over regions (c.r. Deut. 32:8 w/ Dan. 10:12-14), and perhaps even that certain angels were assigned to certain natural elements and functions (which would explain many animistic beliefs), and that if not all these gods and angels fell, then perhaps there was some early interaction with them with regard to the natural world that was licit until man grew into his intended dominion, to replace angels in these roles, with the advent of Christianity.

But this is enormously (and dangerously) speculative. Just one of the most intruiging things that Lewis does with "druidism"/Merlin in THS.

From reading Lewis’s letters, he seemed to believe the world was a _very_ strange place, with all sorts of possibilities that most modern ppl have simply dismissed. I gathered that he might’ve believed in Irish fairies, leprechauns, etc.

Just this AM as I was reading some of his poetry an allusion to another possibility came up. Go read “The Late Passenger” where he has a unicorn not making it onto Noah’s Ark. He might’ve just been having a bit of fun, but knowing him as well as I think I do at this point (from years in his work), he seems to be leaving an option open here.

Regarding things once being lawful and now unlawful, that part in THS has always interested me greatly. Definitely the kind of thing that makes evangelicals nervous. I’ve had passionate discussions with Christian friends who basically abandoned Lewis after reading THS, where it only made me love him more.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

From reading Lewis’s letters, he seemed to believe the world was a _very_ strange place, with all sorts of possibilities that most modern ppl have simply dismissed. I gathered that he might’ve believed in Irish fairies, leprechauns, etc.

Just this AM as I was reading some of his poetry an allusion to another possibility came up. Go read “The Late Passenger” where he has a unicorn not making it onto Noah’s Ark. He might’ve just been having a bit of fun, but knowing him as well as I think I do at this point (from years in his work), he seems to be leaving an option open here.

Regarding things once being lawful and now unlawful, that part in THS has always interested me greatly. Definitely the kind of thing that makes evangelicals nervous. I’ve had passionate discussion with Christian friends who basically abandoned Lewis after reading THS, where it only made me love him more.

His generation lived through one of the worst times to be human on this planet. Between WW1 and 2, most of Europe was turning its back on the church and religion in general. Lewis was also flippant about religion, whereas faith was something entirely different.
Early on, he separated himself from Christianity as a whole, even calling himself more pagan than anything. Then there was a famous but secret conversation between him and Tolken, where he turned around 180 degrees and embraced Christianity. No one is certain what was said, but he openly called himself Christian after that, yet he worked in more and more pagan ideas. I can't remember where it is, but there used to be a website where everything Lewis wrote was broken down and explained how it was all pagan. Even when he called it Christian. I didn't agree 100% with what this critique was saying, but it was interesting. A different way of looking at it.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

His generation lived through one of the worst times to be human on this planet. Between WW1 and 2, most of Europe was turning its back on the church and religion in general. Lewis was also flippant about religion, whereas faith was something entirely different.
Early on, he separated himself from Christianity as a whole, even calling himself more pagan than anything. Then there was a famous but secret conversation between him and Tolken, where he turned around 180 degrees and embraced Christianity. No one is certain what was said, but he openly called himself Christian after that, yet he worked in more and more pagan ideas. I can't remember where it is, but there used to be a website where everything Lewis wrote was broken down and explained how it was all pagan. Even when he called it Christian. I didn't agree 100% with what this critique was saying, but it was interesting. A different way of looking at it.

Lots of anti-intellectual Christians hate Lewis. I’ve seen much of this criticism and consider the source. Many of these folk are the type that would consider the Left Behind series great literature.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Lots of anti-intellectual Christians hate Lewis. I’ve seen much of this criticism and consider the source. Many of these folk are the type that would consider the Left Behind series great literature.

I think that there is a lot of truth in the criticism. There is a lot of overlapping of ideas in pagan ideas and Christianity. You see it especially in the religious holidays. I grew up in a denomination that did not acknowledge the celebration of Jesus's birthday, nor any holiday. Not even your own birthday... not Jehovah's Witnesses, but from the first puritan principles. They've lightened up a lot, ha ha, but I don't attend that church any more for other reasons.

I took a class in Lewis in college, because I had loved his Narnia stuff as a kid. Lewis is a slippery one, ha ha. I also took a class in Mark Twain. Objectively, you see the philosophy of his era in every passage. I still love to reread his work.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

I think that there is a lot of truth in the criticism. There is a lot of overlapping of ideas in pagan ideas and Christianity. You see it especially in the religious holidays. I grew up in a denomination that did not acknowledge the celebration of Jesus's birthday, nor any holiday. Not even your own birthday... not Jehovah's Witnesses, but from the first puritan principles. They've lightened up a lot, ha ha, but I don't attend that church any more for other reasons.

I took a class in Lewis in college, because I had loved his Narnia stuff as a kid. Lewis is a slippery one, ha ha. I also took a class in Mark Twain. Objectively, you see the philosophy of his era in every passage. I still love to reread his work.

Yes, lots of overlap because the pagan world predates Christianity so much was woven together. This is something many Christian people just refuse to see. They seem to want a world created from a Sunday school lesson book, but that’s not the way history works. I have these types of discussions every year around Halloween with Christian friends. They won’t “celebrate” Halloween because of its evil roots etc. Fair enough, but don’t stop there: you’ll need to also get rid of your Christmas tree, egg hunts, etc. And while you’re at it, you’ll need to rename the days of the week and the months of the year.

I took my children trick/treating the other night and it was a light year. There were only two houses where we could join in openly worshipping Satan, and sadly we only managed to sacrifice one cat.


(I’m obviously kidding, but that’s how some of my Christian friends look at Halloween. By the way, I’m a Christian too.)

 

[El Capitán]

Yes, lots of overlap because the pagan world predates Christianity so much was woven together. This is something many Christian people just refuse to see. They seem to want a world created from a Sunday school lesson book, but that’s not the way history works. I have these types of discussions every year around Halloween with Christian friends. They won’t “celebrate” Halloween because of its evil roots etc. Fair enough, but don’t stop there: you’ll need to also get rid of your Christmas tree, egg hunts, etc. And while you’re at it, you’ll need to rename the days of the week and the months of the year.

I took my children trick/treating the other night and it was a light year. There were only two houses where we could join in openly worshipping Satan, and sadly we only managed to sacrifice one cat.


(I’m obviously kidding, but that’s how some of my Christian friends look at Halloween. By the way, I’m a Christian too.)

Funnily enough, I've sacrificed a goat on midwinter before. We ate it after of course.

 

[SBC]

Lewis, at the point of his most developed Christian maturity, would be the first to agree that there is a lot of overlap between paganism and Christianity. The question is how that came to be. As he explains in Mere Christianity and elsewhere, he wound up discovering that the most probable explanation was that Christianity is true.

If the Christian narrative, from creation onward, is true, then it accounts comprehensively for all the phenomena that different cultures and religions have variously understood or partly misunderstood.

He believed this thoroughly enough to give the benefit of the doubt to pagan claims that were not directly addressed in Scripture. He might have to adjust the pagan understanding of what they experienced, but not that they experienced it.

And, like the Christian medievals he spent most of his time in, he was open to the possibility that not all categories of being that God created were spelled out in Scripture, or necessarily fallen.

 

[SBC]

Funnily enough, I've sacrificed a goat on midwinter before. We ate it after of course.

On the Christian view, God once had His people sacrifice goats as well. The instinct to do that is given by Him because it was meant to foreshadow a greater blood sacrifice. A human sacrifice. The life of the world rests on that divine-human sacrifice.

 

[El Capitán]

On the Christian view, God once had His people sacrifice goats as well. The instinct to do that is given by Him because it was meant to foreshadow a greater blood sacrifice. A human sacrifice. The life of the world rests on that divine-human sacrifice.

Now that's something I didn't know and I was Catholic until 16.

 

[SBC]

Now that's something I didn't know and I was Catholic until 16.

Let's keep talking. I'll PM you a little later.

 

[El Capitán]

Let's keep talking. I'll PM you a little later.

Sounds good friend. I enjoy sharing my beliefs and listening to others.

 

[prairiedruid]

I'm impressed that this has stayed civil, well done ladies and gentlemen.

 

[El Capitán]

I'm impressed that this has stayed civil, well done ladies and gentlemen.

It's the passion that people take things personally. We have just made a rarity in any forum.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

I was out on my lunchtime ruck-walk today and thought about this thread when something occurred to me.

I’m sure there are some reading this that don’t “celebrate” Halloween etc. Fair enough. I want every man to have the liberty of his own conscience and to lead his family accordingly.

While we were out the other night on Halloween, I noticed how people were outside their houses on the sidewalks and streets, talking to their neighbors. People bought overpriced (esp in a this economy) candy and gave it away for free. Kids were outside, laughing and enjoying being kids, etc, etc.

This is the ONE NIGHT out of the whole year that this happens, where people seem to genuinely act like neighbors, and where a neighborhood begins to resemble an actual community. And some call it evil.

 

[Streeper541]

I'm impressed that this has stayed civil, well done ladies and gentlemen.

That's because I've stayed out of it. Lol... Just kidding. It's a fascinating discussion really.

To seek knowledge is a fundamental human characteristic, instilled within all of us by our Creator. The human intellect, and the ability to consider the world around us, is truly a great gift. One which separates mankind from the rest of the animal kingdom.

It's too bad sometimes that the pursuit of knowledge has caused so much division and turmoil throughout the course of history. But that too is the nature of man.

 

[El Capitán]

That's because I've stayed out of it. Lol... Just kidding. It's a fascinating discussion really.

To seek knowledge is a fundamental human characteristic, instilled within all of us by our Creator. The human intellect, and the ability to consider the world around us, is truly a great gift. One which separates mankind from the rest of the animal kingdom.

It's too bad sometimes that the pursuit of knowledge has caused so much division and turmoil throughout the course of history. But that too is the nature of man.

It's due to misconceptions and a lack of goodwill.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I’m sure there are some reading this that don’t “celebrate” Halloween etc. Fair enough.

Not everyone who doesn't celebrate Halloween thinks it is evil. I just don't like kids. After raising seven of the things, I've paid my dues. I really don't want to be around everyone else's.

I told my kids that if they could go to age 40 without giving me grand children, I'd give them $40,000. One couldn't make it, and defaulted with a rugrat. I guess $40G's doesn't buy as much as it used to. I may have to up the ante each time one of them falls out of grace.