Religious discussion: Why there are so many denominations

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rakovsky

Starting to Get Obsessed
Nov 28, 2024
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@cosmicfolklore wondered why there were so many Church denominations, and he suggested that I make a thread about why so many appeared. ( Picking on Brits a Bit :: General Discussion - https://pipesmagazine.com/forums/threads/picking-on-brits-a-bit.107465/post-37139254 )

The question basically asks about the many Protestant churches that formed after the start of the 16th century Reformation. The short answer is that it started either with Luther's 16th century Reformation, or with Reformed Protestant groups that formed in the wake of Luther's denomination.

How you would give a longer answer depends on how much importance you give to institutional unity and authorities, and how they should function in the Church. This part of the story goes back to the very beginning of Christianity, then the development of papal authority, and the dynamics of the Reformation.

Here's how I characterized developments in the first few centuries AD on the other thread
In 30 AD, differences over organization and doctrinal questions were clearer-cut because you had Jesus who was the obvious head and could just answer questions directly. In John 6:60-66, some of Jesus' disciples didn't like that He told them that they would have to eat His body, so they stopped following Him. For the future, Jesus appointed apostles who oversaw the Church and gave them his teachings.

In the rest of the 1st century, the apostles led the Church. They used councils like the one in Acts 15 to solve problems. The main splitoff from that period that comes to mind was gnostics like Simon Magus who conflicted with Peter in Acts. To care for the Church after them, the apostles appointed "episcopoi" (ἐπίσκοποι/bishops/overseers/supervisors), and put down basic teachings in the form of the NT, along with oral traditions and customs.

Then from the 2nd century until today, you have a succession of these episcopoi/bishops overseeing the church. They finalized the NT in about the turn of the 1st-2nd century AD, and passed down traditions outside of what's specified in the Bible. They have also used councils to solve disagreements.

In the mid-2nd to late 2nd century a disagreement called the Quartodecimian Controversy arose over the date for celebrating Paskha/Easter. I recall that the main bishop in Rome, the Pope, had the idea that the church in Asia Minor (modern Turkey) should accept the Pope's position because of Rome's importance. But the other Christian bishops in Asia Minor ended up agreeing with the Pope's position without the controversy reaching a head and having to test whether the Pope actually had authority over the rest of the Church.

From the late 2nd century onwards, I see increasing deference given in the Western Christian Church's writings and traditions to the idea of the bishop of Rome holding supreme authority over the rest of Christendom, and the extent of the proposed authority increased as well.
 

anotherbob

Lifer
Mar 30, 2019
16,825
31,566
46
In the semi-rural NorthEastern USA
One thing I'll say is the Bible already has that baked in. So many chapters of the Bible are clearly if you understand even a little bit of the history aimed at explain the same basic thing to different groups of people.
And also when the Religion started not that long ago in the scheme of things there were so many varied interpretations and practices. Even faith was debated in the early days. Some groups were considered Christian that didn't believe but felt there was some good stuff to learn about Ethics and Philosophy (not a lot like that but if anything the fold has gotten tighter and more homogenized).
So in short because the present isn't that different then the past in some ways and the same ideas can hold their fundamental meaning while being seen through different filters.
If you want a long answer become a historian or at least ask them to give you their long answer. There are some insane stories through time about how it ended up here now.
 

anotherbob

Lifer
Mar 30, 2019
16,825
31,566
46
In the semi-rural NorthEastern USA
@cosmicfolklore wondered why there were so many Church denominations, and he suggested that I make a thread about why so many appeared. ( Picking on Brits a Bit :: General Discussion - https://pipesmagazine.com/forums/threads/picking-on-brits-a-bit.107465/post-37139254 )

The question basically asks about the many Protestant churches that formed after the start of the 16th century Reformation. The short answer is that it started either with Luther's 16th century Reformation, or with Reformed Protestant groups that formed in the wake of Luther's denomination.

How you would give a longer answer depends on how much importance you give to institutional unity and authorities, and how they should function in the Church. This part of the story goes back to the very beginning of Christianity, then the development of papal authority, and the dynamics of the Reformation.

Here's how I characterized developments in the first few centuries AD on the other thread
I think Gnosticism was pre-Christian and then kind of hybridized it's self with Christianity and if you want to see branching twisting splits go find some Gnostics honestly I think their secret pope is a cat. Seriously I've seen them range from oh you went to church on illegal mind expanders to how do you keep track of the layers of worlds between us and the inexplicable divine? Oh theres more going the other way.
But honestly I find that history as murky as mud.
 
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Servant King

Lifer
Nov 27, 2020
4,815
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www.thechembow.com
Denominations of anything are all in existence for the same reason: people would rather have their egos validated than acquire any actual knowledge. And there will always be a whole lot of people stepping up to validate those egos, for a price of course. It's no different with religious organizations. They have nothing to do with either the Law or the Supreme Being. They're all about their own ideas, manmade rules. In Hebrew, it's known as takanot. Which coincidentally is precisely what that first commandment prohibits (re- means again, -ligio means to bind). Doesn't seem to me like any of the adherents or their "authority" figures have even read the book, and since they have no training in the principles of Law that the Scripture is trying to teach, how could they possibly know what they're reading? This is why you can have 500 different sects that all say they're based on the same foundation, but yet they're all different from each other. Nuttiness!

What's also nutty is that I kept this rant so short. And that the Peterson blend Nutty Cut is actually not very enjoyable at all. But I'm sure you'll find some obscure sect that says it is...
 

mortonbriar

Lifer
Oct 25, 2013
2,810
6,128
New Zealand
Food, music, religion...you can't introduce something new to a people/culture without them putting their twist on it. Brit pop for example, or pasta in Italy...or lutherans in Scandinavia.

I am not trying to avoid the discussion of pulling it all apart specifically, I am just giving my 2 cents about what I see as the bigger picture of inevitability.
 

anotherbob

Lifer
Mar 30, 2019
16,825
31,566
46
In the semi-rural NorthEastern USA
Denominations of anything are all in existence for the same reason: people would rather have their egos validated than acquire any actual knowledge.
And also that the same info or ideas can be translated in multiple ways. If anything to me it says more for a practice spiritually if the more superficial aspects can change and adapt without damaging the central meaning.
And there will always be a whole lot of people stepping up to validate those egos, for a price of course. It's no different with religious organizations. They have nothing to do with either the Law or the Supreme Being. They're all about their own ideas, manmade rules.
Personally I look at these rules like I look at politeness. Lots of different ways to do it when it's done properly it's nothing more then taking action to show a basic respect for the other person, spiritually showing adoration to the most high. The details matter and they also don't matter, the core intention matters. If you show your love of God/The Divine/Universe/Whatever word you use for it, by rolling in the dirt if it's from your heart that's the key in my opinion.
In Hebrew, it's known as takanot. Which coincidentally is precisely what that first commandment prohibits (re- means again, -ligio means to bind). Doesn't seem to me like any of the adherents or their "authority" figures have even read the book,
I do often think the world would be better if more people read their favorite books. (fun example that I love, the Koran [which no I don't follow, have looked at for information] bangs on about how pointless forcing or even coercing people into the Religion is, maybe we should make ISIS read that book they kill over [hope I don't step on any toes but fuck those guys in the face with a hammer].
That said is there any religion that isn't obscure that doesn't say humans are very fallible prone to massive idiocy and evil? And that our duty is to work on that personally?
and since they have no training in the principles of Law that the Scripture is trying to teach, how could they possibly know what they're reading?
Wait our we talking about Religion or all the Technologies high or low that we use every single day? ;)
This is why you can have 500 different sects that all say they're based on the same foundation, but yet they're all different from each other. Nuttiness!
And while rooted in tradition by definition there is nothing that says it will not adapt to the times and places it travels. In fact like I already said the Bible is written in several styles that were clearly aimed at reaching people from different societies. The core message stays basically the same even if the what's emphasized changes. I think it's not hard to figure out why the book aimed at the Romans would really stress a lot more about how forgiving he is, while the parts aimed at people of Jewish decent talks more about how he'll help you out of jams and how much better the future will be. Which makes sense because those groups have different needs. It's not that different then when people show interest in pipes to me. Some I talk about flavors, some I talk about how cool and interesting the variety of pipes are and show them high end weird pipes, or beat it into their heads that a cob is a fine pipe and equal but different as a smoker to a briar. It doesn't devalue the pipe that it can do different things for different people while fundamentally making life a little more enjoyable.
What's also nutty is that I kept this rant so short. And that the Peterson blend Nutty Cut is actually not very enjoyable at all. But I'm sure you'll find some obscure sect that says it is...
I will now pretend it's my go to number one turn down time with gorgeous friendly woman if they won't let me smoke it around them. Just to be a mild jerk. Never tried it but I can be tenacious when messing with friends.
 
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anotherbob

Lifer
Mar 30, 2019
16,825
31,566
46
In the semi-rural NorthEastern USA
Food, music, religion...you can't introduce something new to a people/culture without them putting their twist on it. Brit pop for example, or pasta in Italy...or lutherans in Scandinavia.

I am not trying to avoid the discussion of pulling it all apart specifically, I am just giving my 2 cents about what I see as the bigger picture of inevitability.
and it doesn't delegitimize any of those things. I love when people tell me I don't eat real Italian food in a snobby way. Yeah but that food did come from Italy and then landed here and of course things changed. For example just the fact it's cheaper to grow abundant tomatoes in America then Italy of course the sauce is going to get bigger. Because the people in the old country would have done the same thing there if they could :). And also if you want to make a living you make a California roll and let the people who live there try the darn stuff.
 
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anotherbob

Lifer
Mar 30, 2019
16,825
31,566
46
In the semi-rural NorthEastern USA
I thought the Protestant Church was something to do with Martin Luther nailing his feces to the door of some church in Germany!
actually he sent a letter history doesn't commit to how much feces it contained if any. (they don't even mention it.) The nailing it to door thing came around latter. But he wrote a very polite but firm letter. Seriously if he wrote something like that today it would end with sorry about stepping on anyone's toes.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
10,041
16,098
My perception (very generally speaking) is most Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and "high church" Protestants were raised in those traditions. And most who convert from a non-Christian background become part of the "low church" Protestant world, primarily because it's much more accessible to someone with no church/religious background.

This results in a large percentage of Protestants who have little grounding, connection and understanding with church history. One really good resource I would recommend for anyone who might relate to that, by a genuine Protestant scholar in historical theology is:


He has many really good videos on just about every theological/doctrinal subject/question you may have, as well as debates/discussions with Catholics and EO.
 

rakovsky

Starting to Get Obsessed
Nov 28, 2024
147
173
That said is there any religion that isn't obscure that doesn't say humans are very fallible prone to massive idiocy and evil? And that our duty is to work on that personally?
With Quakerism, you get the idea that humans are fallible, but also have a mix of good and evil and that everyone has the light of God. It's a very tolerant Protestant pacifist sect. I think Cristianity would agree about what I just said about Quakerism's view of people, like even non-Christians could have God's light, like in the story of the Good Samaritan. But I get the impression that Quakers excel in this area of valuing people from nonChristian religions. I'm not as familiar with nonChristian religions as to how prone to good vs. evil they see humanity by default.
 

rakovsky

Starting to Get Obsessed
Nov 28, 2024
147
173
and it doesn't delegitimize any of those things. I love when people tell me I don't eat real Italian food in a snobby way. Yeah but that food did come from Italy and then landed here and of course things changed. For example just the fact it's cheaper to grow abundant tomatoes in America then Italy of course the sauce is going to get bigger. Because the people in the old country would have done the same thing there if they could :). And also if you want to make a living you make a California roll and let the people who live there try the darn stuff.
What's a California roll?
Sushi rolls come to mind.

Italian American restaurants can be great and there is enough fresh emigration to the US from Italy that you can get Italian Americans who do things like in Italy. I remember having something like a spinach Margherita pizza in Rome in the 90's when I was there a week as a kid, and it didn't have much or any tomato sauce but it did have tomatoes. It was better than some American pizza like 1990's rural US Dominos pizza but not as good as others I've had.

I never went to China. I hear Chinese food in China is alot better than US Chinese food, but from what I can tell they are dealing with alot of the same basic dishes like Kung Pao chicken. US Chinese places can vary a lot in quality. Some big US cities have higher end Chinese restaurants with "hot pot" that run about 35$ per pot. It's good, like a chicken beef stew in a spicey broth with veggies.
 

MisterBadger

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 6, 2024
618
4,539
Ludlow, UK
The Disciple
by Rudyard Kipling

He that hath a Gospel
To loose upon Mankind,
Though he serve it utterly—
Body, soul and mind—
Though he go to Calvary
Daily for its gain—
It is His Disciple
Shall make his labour vain.

He that hath a Gospel
For all earth to own—
Though he etch it on the steel,
Or carve it on the stone—
Not to be misdoubted
Through the after-days—
It is His Disciple
Shall read it many ways.

It is His Disciple
(Ere Those Bones are dust)
Who shall change the Charter,
Who shall split the Trust—
Amplify distinctions,
Rationalize the Claim;
Preaching that the Master
Would have done the same.

It is His Disciple
Who shall tell us how
Much the Master would have scrapped
Had he lived till now—
What he would have modified
Of what he said before.
It is His Disciple
Shall do this and more...

He that hath a Gospel
Whereby Heaven is won
(Carpenter, or cameleer,
Or Maya's dreaming son),
Many swords shall pierce Him,
Mingling blood with gall;
But His Own Disciple
Shall wound Him worst of all!
 
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