Rattray's Tin Age?

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ssjones

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May 11, 2011
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Covington, Louisiana
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I picked up this tin of 3 Noggins at Wingenroth's today. Mel said he's had those tins for about 15 years and that the newer tins had bright yellow labels, vs the tan. Is there anything on the label that can date this tin?





It looks like James B. Russell Inc license went inactive in 1997?

https://www.myfloridalicense.com/LicenseDetail.asp?SID=&id=8DCC9540E2CCF1489683B453C4AB6F1B
Some trademark info, it appears they were the Sasieni distributor

http://www.trademarkia.com/jbr-74127896.html
According to Pipepedia, they went out of business in 2002, so 15 years on the last purchase sounds about right?
A Charatan Freehand sandblast from the period after Dunhill acquired the company - Courtesy of Mike Ahmadi

When J.B. Russell went out of business in 2002 Dunhill re-purchased Charatan and called on Colin Fromm of Invicta Briars and Castleford fame to produce Charatan freehands now. Since Colin Fromm and his foreman Colin Leeson, both belonging to the small number of English pipe artisans skilled in making high-end freehand shapes, had already been making exquisite freehands for Dunhill for a couple of years in Chatham, Kent.

Charatan 4420 & 4420DC Courtesy Yuriy Novikov

 

lochinvar

Lifer
Oct 22, 2013
1,688
1,613
The labels changed after JBR went out of business, which maybe lasted into the early 2000's. I think JBR was hit hard as a lot of their imported brands went out of business, I think they were importers for Rattray, Sobranie, Sullivan Powell, Bengal Slices, Dobie's, and all that was left was Rattray and Sasieni in the end. I remember seeing the slick, shiny labels maybe 2007 give or take. I'm sure K&K had a lot of the old parchment style already and used them for a while, a few of the slower moving blends I've only recently seen with the new labels.
3 Noggins with 15 years on it should be tasty. It always tasted like stout to me....I think I need to open a tin now come to think of it:)

 

pipestud

Lifer
Dec 6, 2012
2,021
1,848
Robinson, TX.
Nice tin, Ssjones. It's McConnell's made 1990s or very early 2000s. It has the Made in Germany sticker on it and the weight is listed in ounces rather than grams. If it has the pictorial lid opening instructions on the pop top, then its even older.
Hope I don't bore you with this, but my go to info on Rattray's tins comes from info provided by the late Jon Loring and here it is -
Rattray

More mistakes are made in dating Rattray tobacco tins than with any other brand. The key is to generally disregard the label and look at the tin itself.

Rattray was a Scottish tobacconist who closed up shop in about 1980 but whose highly regarded pipe tobacco blends continue to the present day. Up to about 1970 all Rattray tobacco was blended by Rattray and came in tall thin 4 ounce 'knife lid' (or briefly in the 1960's in 4 ounce 'lever') tins. These tins were all labeled 'Made by Rattray'. [For reasons unknown the Highland Targe label has never been imprinted either 'Made by' or 'Made for' and dating of this blend has to be done by the tin top and bottom alone.] It is generally thought that Rattray continued blending all of its blends for another ten years and then, in 1980, turned them over to Robert McConnell, a fine English blender. However, based on a conversation related by Irwin Friedman with a former Rattray employee and which I find, with some modification, collaborated by the packaging, it appears rather that in about 1970 Rattray turned over the blending of some of its blends intended for the United States to McConnell. McConnel labeled the tins it blended 'Made forRattray'. Rattray continued to blend itself the tins intended for the English and European markets, as well as all the blends of lesser demand, which tins were labeled, as in the past, 'Made by Rattray'.

When Rattray closed its doors in 1980 McConnell took over the blending of all the Rattray labeled tobacco, but did not change the labeling, thus after 1980 some McConnell blended tins were labeled 'Made for Rattray' while others also blended by McConnell were nonetheless labeled 'Made by Rattray'. McConnell blended in England through the 1980s but shifted production to Germany (and later elsewhere) beginning in about 1990 without any change in the labels, thus continuing the now meaningless 'Made byRattray' and 'Made for Rattray' duality. Further, the country of origin for the German made Rattray was not included on the label (in the US only it was on a removable tab on the bottom of the tin).

Thus for Rattray tobaccos it is impossible to determine from the label alone who was the blender or when or where the tin was blended.

But if you largely disregard the label and look at the tin top and bottom you will do just fine:

• if the 'pop top' tin top is plain, the tin dates to the 1990's and was blended on the Continent;

• 'if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made for Rattray" label Robert McConnell of England was the blender and the tin dates to the 1970's -1880s;

• if the 'pop top' tin top has text only opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray label it dates to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray of Scotland; and

• if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray" label the tin dates either to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray in Scotland, if it has a silver tinted bottom, or to the 1980's and was blended by McConnell in England, if the tin has a gold tinted bottom.

The problem with the last category of tins however, is that it is extremely difficult to determine whether you are looking at a silver or a gold tinted tin bottom unless you have one of the other for comparison (and do not believe any one that tells you they can do it without a comparison tin). For comparison purposes you can safely use either a Rattray's 'pop top' with text only instructions on the top, which tin will only have a silver bottom or, more readily findable, a tin with pictorial instructions on the top and a 'made forRattray' label, which tin will only have a gold bottom.

In short:

Plain top (either a "for" or "by" label & either a gold or silver bottom) ---------------- Europe/'90s

Picture top / gold bottom / "by" label ------------------------- England (McConnell)/'80s

Picture top / gold bottom / "for" label ----------------- England (McConnell)/'70s - '80s

Picture top / silver bottom / "by" label ---------------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s

Text only top / silver bottom / "by" label ----------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s.

© 1999 John C. Loring

 

josephcross

Part of the Furniture Now
Dec 30, 2015
963
77
Ive never tried 3noggins, but I bet with 15 years under its belt its going to be delicious.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,211
59,145
Then there are Rattray pipes which are all house pipes contracted out from others. So Rattrays are not Scottish pipes but usually a French brand like Chacom or Butz-Choquin. Or something else. Rattray was a smart old merchant who knew how to build a brand.

 

sonarman

Lurker
Oct 1, 2016
3
9
New England
I have a tin of Hal o the Wind that I have labeled being from 2009. Yellow shiny label but it says "Blended by" not "Blended for" and says "in" Scottland rather than just ""Scottland". I'm checking them against a 90-00 version and a 2012 version. Both of the latter say blended for and don't say in Scottland. Anyone else have a tin like what I have mentioned?

 
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