Rattray’s HOTW, Marlin Flake and Old Gowrie

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kurtbob

Lifer
Jul 9, 2019
2,131
12,762
58
SE Georgia
I have read many times that the 3 above tobaccos have the same component tobaccos but blended in different proportions. Is anyone aware of what those proportions roughly are for each? The reason I’m asking is, for insight on purchasing new blends. To me HOTW is my favorite with MF second and OG I really don’t care for at all. Any input is appreciated!
 

Jaylotw

Lifer
Mar 13, 2020
1,062
4,069
NE Ohio
MF is Va/Per with Cavendish. The others have no Cavendish, but DFK. Brown Clunee is the "third sister" to OG and DFK. To my tastes, Hal is heavier on the DFK, while Old Gowrie leans more on the perique, but in each case the condiments are used lightly, so lightly in fact that years ago on forums people used to get in arguments about whether or not the blends were straight VAs or not as the blending house never mentioned what was actually in the blends until more recently. I remember some old timers swearing up and down until they were blue in the face that Old Gowrie was a straight VA and anyone who disagreed clearly had the palate of a goat and the brains of a chipmunk. Funny.
 

kurtbob

Lifer
Jul 9, 2019
2,131
12,762
58
SE Georgia
MF is Va/Per with Cavendish. The others have no Cavendish, but DFK. Brown Clunee is the "third sister" to OG and DFK. To my tastes, Hal is heavier on the DFK, while Old Gowrie leans more on the perique, but in each case the condiments are used lightly, so lightly in fact that years ago on forums people used to get in arguments about whether or not the blends were straight VAs or not as the blending house never mentioned what was actually in the blends until more recently. I remember some old timers swearing up and down until they were blue in the face that Old Gowrie was a straight VA and anyone who disagreed clearly had the palate of a goat and the brains of a chipmunk. Funny.
It’s just me but, I get a slight sweetness with HOTW and MF………not so much with OG. I guess that’s the deciding factor along with the overall flavor profile
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
20,989
50,256
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
It's great that you like these blends as they are, as they're a bit different than they were, even a few years ago, much less 40 or 50 years ago.

We often talk about cellaring before a blend gets taken off the market, but what's becoming more apparent is to cellar something you like before it's maker decides to alter it. Tins are filled with something that's not the same blend all over the market, whether it's Rattray's or now Solani Silver, or Wessex Campaign Dark flake, components are getting subbed out. Why is anyone's guess, but changes have been widely noticed. Not all change is bad. But it is unpredictable when a blend that one particularly likes will disappear, even though it's tin says it's still there.
 

peteguy

Lifer
Jan 19, 2012
1,531
916
"We often talk about cellaring before a blend gets taken off the market, but what's becoming more apparent is to cellar something you like before it's maker decides to alter it."

This has saved me more times than I can count over the past 2 years.
 

Swiss Army Knife

Can't Leave
Jul 12, 2021
464
1,358
North Carolina
To my tastes the only thing shared between Marlin Flake and OG/HotW is they both contain Virginia. It's a completely different blend and other than all being Rattray's virginias I don't get the direct comparison.

Old Gowrie, Hal O' The Wynd and Brown Clunee are the real triplets. To me HOTW feels the most like a straight red virginia with a condimental spice. Old Gowrie is next with more of a virginia mix and slightly more punch in the spice department. Then finally Brown Clunee knocks the spice level up a good deal. So much so that I don't really enjoy smoking the stuff fresh, I'm hoping it melds together better after 3-4 years.
 

kurtbob

Lifer
Jul 9, 2019
2,131
12,762
58
SE Georgia
It's great that you like these blends as they are, as they're a bit different than they were, even a few years ago, much less 40 or 50 years ago.

We often talk about cellaring before a blend gets taken off the market, but what's becoming more apparent is to cellar something you like before it's maker decides to alter it. Tins are filled with something that's not the same blend all over the market, whether it's Rattray's or now Solani Silver, or Wessex Campaign Dark flake, components are getting subbed out. Why is anyone's guess, but changes have been widely noticed. Not all change is bad. But it is unpredictable when a blend that one particularly likes will disappear, even though it's tin says it's still there.
Sad but true sir. There was a certain Savinelli blend that I won’t mention the name of (it ends in Oro) that was my all time favorite several years back. Wasn’t worried about cellaring it deep because I made that mistake of assuming it would be around forever in its original formulation…….very disappointed in its current form. Sadly, I only have 3 tins of the original left?
 

romaso

Lifer
Dec 29, 2010
2,036
7,884
Pacific NW
Old Gowrie is next with more of a virginia mix and slightly more punch in the spice department. Then finally Brown Clunee knocks the spice level up a good deal.
That's funny cause with mine it's the opposite, my Brown Clunee has less spice than OG, but mine were bought in 2009 (and recently unearthed). May just be the qualities of the Virginia they have at the time.
 

Terry Lennox

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 11, 2021
539
2,821
Southern California
Tins are filled with something that's not the same blend all over the market, whether it's Rattray's or now Solani Silver, or Wessex Campaign Dark flake, components are getting subbed out.
Not to get too off topic of this thread but I'm curious to know Sable how recent tins of Wessex Campaign Dark Flake have differed from past. I am fairly new to this blend (last couple years).
 

TheWhale13

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 12, 2021
803
3,427
Sweden
It's great that you like these blends as they are, as they're a bit different than they were, even a few years ago, much less 40 or 50 years ago.

We often talk about cellaring before a blend gets taken off the market, but what's becoming more apparent is to cellar something you like before it's maker decides to alter it. Tins are filled with something that's not the same blend all over the market, whether it's Rattray's or now Solani Silver, or Wessex Campaign Dark flake, components are getting subbed out. Why is anyone's guess, but changes have been widely noticed. Not all change is bad. But it is unpredictable when a blend that one particularly likes will disappear, even though it's tin says it's still there.
Has silver flake been altered?
 
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sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
20,989
50,256
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Not to get too off topic of this thread but I'm curious to know Sable how recent tins of Wessex Campaign Dark Flake have differed from past. I am fairly new to this blend (last couple years).
I'm getting this on report from people I'vre known for years, and who have well developed palates. I haven't bought any since 2014. There's seems to be agreement that the components and the amounts in the blends have been subbed out. Again, you might like what being offered, but for people who like the characteristic of a favored blend, having that change is not welcome.
People were commenting on changes to the Astley's blends several years ago, as well as changes to several of the Rattray's blends. And there's the HU changes that I and jiminks noticed in 2019 and a lot of dark fired being added to blends from several labels.
There have been changes to blends when they get taken over by a different manufacturer, nothing new about that. But this is not the same thing.
So if you like what you're tasting, stock up, because it might be quite different next drop.
 

simong

Lifer
Oct 13, 2015
2,747
16,591
UK
I remember some old timers swearing up and down until they were blue in the face that Old Gowrie was a straight VA and anyone who disagreed clearly had the palate of a goat and the brains of a chipmunk. Funny.
Unless those old timers were smoking the original Rattray's blends, in which case they'd be right. Old Gowrie, Marlin Flake, Brown Clunee & Hal O the Wynd were all straight Virginia blends, when they were blended in Perth (Scotland).
After Rattray's closed up I think McConnells took over the production for a few years before they themselves moved production to London (?) for a short while before they in turn were taken over by Kohlhosse & Koppe. Haven't a clue if it was McConnells or K&K who changed the recipes but I'm guessing the change happened in the early 90's?
Still think today's Marlin Flake & Hal O the Wynd are right up there with the best of what you can currently get.
 

captpat

Lifer
Dec 16, 2014
2,388
12,411
North Carolina
It's great that you like these blends as they are, as they're a bit different than they were, even a few years ago, much less 40 or 50 years ago.

We often talk about cellaring before a blend gets taken off the market, but what's becoming more apparent is to cellar something you like before it's maker decides to alter it. Tins are filled with something that's not the same blend all over the market, whether it's Rattray's or now Solani Silver, or Wessex Campaign Dark flake, components are getting subbed out. Why is anyone's guess, but changes have been widely noticed. Not all change is bad. But it is unpredictable when a blend that one particularly likes will disappear, even though it's tin says it's still there.
I think another factor is that the base tobaccos undergo changes in their characteristics due to variations in weather, water, farming practices, etc. that in turn will change the flavor or how it reacts to the blending process. Much like wine has good and bad vintages. I suspect this sort of change is gradual as blenders combine components to create a particular blend.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
20,989
50,256
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
I think another factor is that the base tobaccos undergo changes in their characteristics due to variations in weather, water, farming practices, etc. that in turn will change the flavor or how it reacts to the blending process. Much like wine has good and bad vintages. I suspect this sort of change is gradual as blenders combine components to create a particular blend.
That's some of it, but blenders mix crops from different years to keep consistency in their commercial releases. Otherwise there would be even more batch to batch variation. This is different in that types of components are changing. It might be the disappearance of bright from a blend that used it, or the appearance of bright in a blend that didn't, or the sudden appearance in Cavendish in what used to be Peter Heinrich's Curly block, after STG took over manufacture of it.
 

Terry Lennox

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 11, 2021
539
2,821
Southern California
Does K&K make any coin cuts? I was once told that the equipment to make the Escudo diameter coins (as opposed to the smaller 3 Nuns size) was only available to STG. They still use the original metal cylinders shipped over to Denmark when production ended in the UK according to something I read from GL Pease (in response to someone asking him why he doesn't make a coin cut). So I'm not sure K&K ever made these curlys.
 

huntertrw

Lifer
Jul 23, 2014
5,875
7,597
The Lower Forty of Hill Country
An old Charles Rattray blend list in my collection describes two of your three tobaccos as follows:

"Hal O' The Wynd
Rich rust red honeydew with slight yellow streak. No latakia or dark cavendish to alter the even red colour. Quite surprising mildness for a straight Virginia, slow burning."

"Old Gowrie
A rich dark red chestnut colour with good strength, without bite, and slow burning. A great favourite for smokers who like the straight Virginia without trappings or additional flavours."

Interestingly, Marlin Flake is not included in this list.

I hope that you find this information to be helpful.
 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
20,989
50,256
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Does K&K make any coin cuts? I was once told that the equipment to make the Escudo diameter coins (as opposed to the smaller 3 Nuns size) was only available to STG. They still use the original metal cylinders shipped over to Denmark when production ended in the UK according to something I read from GL Pease (in response to someone asking him why he doesn't make a coin cut). So I'm not sure K&K ever made these curlys.
K&K makes Director's Cut, which contains small coins. Peter Heinrich's Curly Block was a log, and that's still the format after STG took over production of it. A&C Petersen brought over the original Escudo equipment when they took over production from Gallaher, and it went to Orlik when they took over before going to STG, who subbed out pretty much everything in it, a couple of times now, and the current product isn't Escudo. It's something in a tin with the name Escudo on it.
 

Terry Lennox

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 11, 2021
539
2,821
Southern California
K&K makes Director's Cut, which contains small coins. Peter Heinrich's Curly Block was a log, and that's still the format after STG took over production of it. A&C Petersen brought over the original Escudo equipment when they took over production from Gallaher, and it went to Orlik when they took over before going to STG, who subbed out pretty much everything in it, a couple of times now, and the current product isn't Escudo. It's something in a tin with the name Escudo on it.
Well yes but it's my understanding that logs just like these (but longer) are what the Escudo-size coins are cut from. The metal cylinders used to form them are the same.