Questions for Leonardw

[swan]

Hello everybody!
I read with a lot of interest the thread from Leonardw about STG/Sutliff/MacBaren that as we all know it is going to have an impact on our hobby.

It is honestly a pity that some users expressed their frustration in some uncivil manners and I hope that we can keep the discussion as adults in here as I think that we can all ask questions to @leonardw and see if he is at liberty of answering some.

I also hope that the admin do not mistake this as an attempt to revamp the flame: it is a honest attempt to have a civilized and adult discussion about a very important topic and I encourage any other user to add constructive questions and not indulge in insults or provocative/ironic answers.

My questions for leonardw:

- Regarding Sutliff you posted the information that the almost all the blends made by Sutliff had sales volumes of below 1'000 lbs (453kg) a year. Is that the threshold that defines what will be kept and what will not?

- You mentioned that in case "overwhelming demand" for a blend arises, STG would consider re-introducing the. What would you consider being "overwhelming demand" if a product is already below the aforementioned threshold? And how should it be expressed?

- You say that there is no risk of the blends changing as they are FDA regulated so they must be the same. However, as we have been seeing over the years so many times with blends changing radically even if the recipe is theoretically the same, even if a blend is be made of for instance, 58% virginia 23% orientals and 19% perique those ingredients are not always the same or are not cured by manufacturers in the same way. So how can you guarantee that whatever STG will keep from Sutliff and MB will be the same when produced under STG roof?

- As for Sutliff, you answered about the question of the equipment being scrapped citing the example of a old cutter that was a display item that will be saved. But the question was about production equipment like presses and other very specific tools used for pipe tobacco manufacturing. Are you able to confirm or deny the rumor that everything will be scrapped not to favour competition?


- You didn't mention anything about MacBaren. Will the 1000lbs/453kg threshold apply to them too? Are you able to quantify, similarly to how you did with Sutliff, how many of their blends are below that threshold and at risk of being discontinued globally, not just USA (as Sutliff was mainly active in the US market but MacBaren was also very strong in Europe)? Any possible information about the HH line?

- Are you able to confirm or deny any of the rumors describing the plan of drastically cut the number of SKU available on the market by 2028?

Thank you very much for your availability to discuss the topic and your time spent here answering the messages.
Once again I hope we can have a civil discussion in here as pipesmokers are supposed to

 

[telescopes]

Also, going back to a question I had asked: Do you have a plan to support local B&Ms and other providers who make local blends and store blends for their customers. Many of these blends are over 100 years old.

 

[sfduke]

@leonardw
Hoping the forum mods will allow us to keep this thread

Being able to ask questions directly about the STG/Sutliff situation will help with out TAD hoarding happening right now

My hope is the four (maybe 6) flake press setups at Sutliff will find a home. Yes most of it can be bought off-the-shelf but they are already modded to make 10# pressed blocks.

Note to self: Buy some 10# blocks of Old Dominion WCC

 

[lupy1234]

Good questions, hope people keep it civil. I sent him a DM about equipment and he did answer me.

 

[smudgersmissingleg]

It was really good of him to come on here and let people know what was happening and answer their questions. Hopefully this thread doesn't get derailed and shut down.

 

[leonardw]

Hello everybody!
I read with a lot of interest the thread from Leonardw about STG/Sutliff/MacBaren that as we all know it is going to have an impact on our hobby.

It is honestly a pity that some users expressed their frustration in some uncivil manners and I hope that we can keep the discussion as adults in here as I think that we can all ask questions to @leonardw and see if he is at liberty of answering some.

I also hope that the admin do not mistake this as an attempt to revamp the flame: it is a honest attempt to have a civilized and adult discussion about a very important topic and I encourage any other user to add constructive questions and not indulge in insults or provocative/ironic answers.

My questions for leonardw:

- Regarding Sutliff you posted the information that the almost all the blends made by Sutliff had sales volumes of below 1'000 lbs (453kg) a year. Is that the threshold that defines what will be kept and what will not?

- You mentioned that in case "overwhelming demand" for a blend arises, STG would consider re-introducing the. What would you consider being "overwhelming demand" if a product is already below the aforementioned threshold? And how should it be expressed?

- You say that there is no risk of the blends changing as they are FDA regulated so they must be the same. However, as we have been seeing over the years so many times with blends changing radically even if the recipe is theoretically the same, even if a blend is be made of for instance, 58% virginia 23% orientals and 19% perique those ingredients are not always the same or are not cured by manufacturers in the same way. So how can you guarantee that whatever STG will keep from Sutliff and MB will be the same when produced under STG roof?

- As for Sutliff, you answered about the question of the equipment being scrapped citing the example of a old cutter that was a display item that will be saved. But the question was about production equipment like presses and other very specific tools used for pipe tobacco manufacturing. Are you able to confirm or deny the rumor that everything will be scrapped not to favour competition?


- You didn't mention anything about MacBaren. Will the 1000lbs/453kg threshold apply to them too? Are you able to quantify, similarly to how you did with Sutliff, how many of their blends are below that threshold and at risk of being discontinued globally, not just USA (as Sutliff was mainly active in the US market but MacBaren was also very strong in Europe)? Any possible information about the HH line?

- Are you able to confirm or deny any of the rumors describing the plan of drastically cut the number of SKU available on the market by 2028?

Thank you very much for your availability to discuss the topic and your time spent here answering the messages.
Once again I hope we can have a civil discussion in here as pipesmokers are supposed to

All of this is a bit tricky. Attempting to provide concise explanations can create additional confusion, as is the case with the 1,000 lb. example. Discussing anything FDA related on a public forum is always tricky for a multitude of reasons. Discussing purported internal documents that may or may not exist and that may or may not have been leaked by an employee who may or may not exist... Tricky, trickier and trickiest.

But I've put myself out there, so let me try my best.

There is no single factor that drives the decision on what items to keep and what to discontinue. Volume (lbs.), profitability, regulatory status, uniqueness of a blend in the portfolio, blends that are essentially duplicates in the portfolio - all of these factors must be considered.

Let me give an example. (I can't believe I'm about to put this on public forum, but what the hell...) One of the best selling items in the Sutliff portfolio, by any metric, is 507C Virginia Slices. But Sutliff doesn't actually make 507C. Neither does Mac Baren. STG makes it. We sell it to Sutliff in bulk quantities. We also sell it under another name: Peter Stokkeybe Luxury Navy Flake.

So do I keep 507C even though it is literally the exact same product? Will consumers even believe me when I tell them they are the same product? That Sutliff doesn't have the capability to make that style flake, and that STG was selling it to them prior to Mac Baren purchasing Sutliff, and that we kept selling to them after Mac Baren purchased them? I have chains of emails where we discussed (mostly argued) over this very topic.

Put the 1,000 lb. figure aside for now and just think in terms of small batch production and larger production runs.

The Sutliff facility is comparatively small, older and well suited for during short production runs for the U.S. market. The STG facility in Denmark has extra capacity and well suited for long production runs to serve the needs of pipe smokers in more than 70 countries around the globe. The Mac Baren facility, also in Denmark, is sort of a mix between the STG and Sutliff facilities.

So I was faced with a conundrum. Maintaining three pipe tobacco factories was never going to be a financially viable option. Producing small batch items at STG's facility will not work with our current setup. The other two facilities do not have the capacity to produced the combined portfolios.

Based on this and multiple other factors, I recommended that we discontinue the majority of the Sutliff portfolio. STG followed my advice. I did not take these decisions lightly. I knew full well that in making my recommendation it would almost certainly lead to closure of the Sutliff factory. This was indeed the case, and last month I stood in front of those employees as the STG representative when the announcement was made.

So what might we bring back and why? It will be based on a combination of factors. One way to think about it: Anything we bring back will be because I made a mistake and it never should have been discontinued in the first place.

Regarding shifting blends from one facility to another and maintaining their consistency... We have very, very knowledgeable teams who successfully migrated blends like Captain Black and 1Q from Atlanta to Assens.

Regarding the equipment... I am not involved in every discussion, but I've been involved in most of them and I haven't heard anything about the disposition of the equipment. When we closed Lane, we sent some equipment to Assens, we sold what we could, and we scrapped the rest. Will it be the same combination for Sutliff? I honestly don't know, and I would be skeptical of any one who claims to know.

What will the global pipe tobacco portfolio look like in 2028? That planning has barely begun and no company would discuss long-term plans in public. And if history proves correct, whatever we plan will drastically change along the way. I think the more relevant question is: What will the U.S. STG portfolio look like at the end of 2028 vs. the end of 2025? Again, that planning is just beginning, but if I had to guess, there will be more brands and more blends in the U.S. portfolio.

 

[leonardw]

Also, going back to a question I had asked: Do you have a plan to support local B&Ms and other providers who make local blends and store blends for their customers. Many of these blends are over 100 years old.

I assume you are mostly referring to base blending components such as perique, latakia etc. Without getting into the item by item portfolio just yet, some of them they may have to source from another vendor (rhymes with Hormel and Veal). If for whatever reason there was no other source for a component, we would step (back) in to fill that gap.

I've seen comments on other threads forums and podcasts from two well known B&M blenders. Separately they expressed the exact same opinion: they've gone through this before (most recently with the closure of McClelland) and they'll be fine. (Their words, not mine.)

 

[woodsroad]

Thank you, Leonard.

 

[sfduke]

I assume you are mostly referring to base blending components such as perique, latakia etc. Without getting into the item by item portfolio just yet, some of them they may have to source from another vendor (rhymes with Hormel and Veal). If for whatever reason there was no other source for a component, we would step (back) in to fill that gap.

I've seen comments on other threads forums and podcasts from two well known B&M blenders. Separately they expressed the exact same opinion: they've gone through this before (most recently with the closure of McClelland) and they'll be fine. (Their words, not mine.)

Hopefully Sutliff blends like 515 RC-1 and TS1R may come back since there are no alternatives available

 

[Snook]

The insight is appreciated, Leonard. Thank you for taking the time to write these responses.

 

[seabee1999]

Many thanks @leonardw. I appreciate the candor and passing along your insights of what decisions are being made behind closed doors. Although still unsettling, it’s nice to at least see what considerations are being made. Like others, I wish to advocate for retaining the 515-RC blend. It’s such a great tobacco for me to smoke and mix with to make my own home blends.

 

[sablebrush52]

- You say that there is no risk of the blends changing as they are FDA regulated so they must be the same. However, as we have been seeing over the years so many times with blends changing radically even if the recipe is theoretically the same, even if a blend is be made of for instance, 58% virginia 23% orientals and 19% perique those ingredients are not always the same or are not cured by manufacturers in the same way. So how can you guarantee that whatever STG will keep from Sutliff and MB will be the same when produced under STG roof?

He can't guarantee that. Sourcing tobaccos has become an increasing issue in recent years. STG will have its contracts with sources and they will be different from the contracts that Sutliff had. Might be the same varietals in the same percentages, with the same types of toppings, which satisfies the FDA Deeming requirements, but that doesn't guarantee the same flavors. All they can try to do is get close using their production materials.

 

[wyfbane]

I assume you are mostly referring to base blending components such as perique, latakia etc. Without getting into the item by item portfolio just yet, some of them they may have to source from another vendor (rhymes with Hormel and Veal). If for whatever reason there was no other source for a component, we would step (back) in to fill that gap.

I've seen comments on other threads forums and podcasts from two well known B&M blenders. Separately they expressed the exact same opinion: they've gone through this before (most recently with the closure of McClelland) and they'll be fine. (Their words, not mine.)

Thank you for being so forthcoming about the merger. I continue to hope things will transition as smoothly as possible.

 

[geoffreybeene]

Thanks for sharing @leonardw . That 507C thing is gonna blow some minds. Wonder what other info like that would help the pipe community understand how much we think is sacred is actually way more complicated than we think.

 

[urbanpiper]

Thanks for sharing @leonardw . That 507C thing is gonna blow some minds. Wonder what other info like that would help the pipe community understand how much we think is sacred is actually way more complicated than we think.

I'd assumed that was fairly common knowledge. At least that it was an STG produced blend

 

[geoffreybeene]

I am confused that 507C is marketed as 100% virginia, while LNF is marketed as a VaPer. Wonder what the thinking is with that?

 

[telescopes]

I am confused that 507C is marketed as 100% virginia, while LNF is marketed as a VaPer. Wonder what the thinking is with that?

@leonardw - that’s a great observation. Thoughts?

 

[woodsroad]

Thanks for sharing @leonardw . That 507C thing is gonna blow some minds. Wonder what other info like that would help the pipe community understand how much we think is sacred is actually way more complicated than we think.

This was well known among many, speculated among others, and adamantly denied by the true believers. It’s no different than with many other (non-tobacco) products.

 

[wyfbane]

Thanks for sharing @leonardw . That 507C thing is gonna blow some minds. Wonder what other info like that would help the pipe community understand how much we think is sacred is actually way more complicated than we think.

Certainly explains why it hasn't sold out... it's made in the high capacity STG factory.

My mind: blown. Lol

 

[Jesster109]

I may or may not have enough in my cellar that I don't have to ever purchase tobacco again, but I may want to, of course. I applaud Leaonard for putting himself out here for the community. I appreciate it.