Prayers Needed in CT
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Gun Laws work in tons of countries all over the world. Look at Japan and Singapore as examples, they have practically no violent crimes where guns are involved because of their laws. 20 year minimum sentence will work. People who claim they need a gun for defense are deluding themselves into a false sense of security. I have lived 55 years and have never once needed a gun. If mentally ill people like the scumbags who kill children at schools did not have access to a gun, there would be less children killed. It is a matter of will, you take all guns off the streets, yes criminals will not give theirs up, but after a few years of a minimum 20 year sentence, they will either be in jail or they will have gotten rid of their guns.
The second amendment was fine when it was written, but in today's world it is not valid. Sorry for making this political, but every fiber of my being knows that if this mentally ill fuck could not get a gun, 20 children would not be dead. I do not know how any parent who could vote to have guns legal.
The second amendment was fine when it was written, but in today's world it is not valid. Sorry for making this political, but every fiber of my being knows that if this mentally ill fuck could not get a gun, 20 children would not be dead. I do not know how any parent who could vote to have guns legal.
Are you saying that when the second amendment was written, there wasn't any mentally ill people, or even ones that committed violent crime with firearms?
+1
Amendment II.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
It was written to protect the citizens from their government and outlaws in a very different world, I do not see us taking on Predator Drones and F15's.
Roth, do you really think someone is going to enter your house in your quiet little town and try to take your stuff? I have a machete next to my bed and feel very safe. I have never had anyone break into my home, I have never had anyone threaten me with a gun and if you think about the statistics, more people eat their guns or kill a loved one than ever have the opportunity to use it against someone breaking into their homes. The numbers do not lie, how many senseless deaths from accidental shootings or kids getting into their parents guns could be prevented?
I am sorry for ruining this thread, it was not my intention, it just is something I feel very strongly about and these killings just reinforce my beliefs. If a mod wants to delete my posts, I have no problem with it.
Roth, do you really think someone is going to enter your house in your quiet little town and try to take your stuff? I have a machete next to my bed and feel very safe. I have never had anyone break into my home, I have never had anyone threaten me with a gun and if you think about the statistics, more people eat their guns or kill a loved one than ever have the opportunity to use it against someone breaking into their homes. The numbers do not lie, how many senseless deaths from accidental shootings or kids getting into their parents guns could be prevented?
I am sorry for ruining this thread, it was not my intention, it just is something I feel very strongly about and these killings just reinforce my beliefs. If a mod wants to delete my posts, I have no problem with it.
There wouldn't be much point in a government using F-15's and Predator Drones against a country it's trying to control, and it would be much harder to bully someone into doing what you want them to do if they can't defend themselves. I had my home broken into several times over the 16 years I lived in Tacoma, WA, and not the sh*tty part of town either. My friend had her door kicked in yesterday while she was Christmas shopping, luckily she wasn't home, and all they took was a few dollars from her coffee table and 2 TV's. Your intentions are good, but it doesn't stop you from being wrong.
China has strict gun laws. The below story happened yesterday in China...the SAME day as the CT shooting. I guess knives will have to be outlawed as well.
Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story
Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story
I guess no one ever killed anyone before guns. There are tons of flights that leave the US every day if other countries have it figured out I am sure they will welcome anyone interested with open arms. Blame the crazies not the gun. I also support everyone anti gun to get a sign a put it in their yard NO GUNS HERE.
22 injured with a knife vs 28 dead by 2 handguns and an assault rifle; hmmm...
And outlawing knives or cars or baseball bats is a real weak straw man; killing people is not their main purpose.
"If you outlaw guns only criminals will own them" while that might be true it doesn't work here. This school shooter was no criminal, he was just an ordinary person (albeit possibly mentally ill) and he took her mother's guns who is a teacher at that school. If guns were outlawed he wouldn't be able to get those guns. An average citizen doesn't have access to black market.
About 10.000 homicides in a year in USA and firearms are used in 75% of them.
3.0 homicides with a firearm per 100.000 in USA, 0.07 per 100.000 in UK, 0.2 in Germany, ~0.3 in Switzerland (~8 million citizens, ~1.2 million guns, 32 homicides with a gun in a year).
I am not from the USA so I won't pretend to perfectly understand your mindset about firearms but I think you need to redefine your relation with them (case in point; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6662213.stm Yes it may not be an actual permit or he may not get the gun until he is older but they are all irrelevant here; it's about your relation with guns, your mindset).
And outlawing knives or cars or baseball bats is a real weak straw man; killing people is not their main purpose.
"If you outlaw guns only criminals will own them" while that might be true it doesn't work here. This school shooter was no criminal, he was just an ordinary person (albeit possibly mentally ill) and he took her mother's guns who is a teacher at that school. If guns were outlawed he wouldn't be able to get those guns. An average citizen doesn't have access to black market.
About 10.000 homicides in a year in USA and firearms are used in 75% of them.
3.0 homicides with a firearm per 100.000 in USA, 0.07 per 100.000 in UK, 0.2 in Germany, ~0.3 in Switzerland (~8 million citizens, ~1.2 million guns, 32 homicides with a gun in a year).
I am not from the USA so I won't pretend to perfectly understand your mindset about firearms but I think you need to redefine your relation with them (case in point; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6662213.stm Yes it may not be an actual permit or he may not get the gun until he is older but they are all irrelevant here; it's about your relation with guns, your mindset).
One of the teachers saw the guy who shot up Virginia Tech, saw him isolating himself and depressed, and she said in an interview she half-expected and wouldn't be surprised if he had killed himself, this is all before the shooting.
No one wants to ever think that someone would do something like this, and that's a good thing. Ignoring the warning signs of an obviously disturbed person, is certainly not a good thing.
No, actually they don't. In 2003, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention published a report that studied whether or not gun control works. They looked at all forms of gun control from around the world, from bans on certain guns, bans on all guns, bans on ammunition, regulating ammunition, licensing and registration, waiting periods, and harsher penalties for gun crimes, etc. The conclusion? Nothing worked in reducing violent gun crime.
The National Academy of Sciences also published a study of 253 journal articles, 99 books and 43 government publications that all dealt with gun control and violent crime involving firearms. According to their report, the total number of gun laws that made a measurable effect in reducing violent crime, suicide and accidents?... Zero.
Why do other countries have such low numbers compared to ours in terms of gun related crime? There are many reasons, heres two: they don't have the gang problem that we have nor do they have drug problem that we have. You also have to take into account total population vs guns owned. In that regard, its interesting that the Brady Campaign doesn't show you the statistics for say, Brazil: They have approximately 8 guns per 100 people (and much stricter gun control laws) and their total gun homicide rate was 34,000 in 2008.
Contrast this with the U.S.: We have approximately 88 firearms per 100 people and in 2008 our gun homicide rate was 9,000.
When looking at the amount of guns we have in the U.S. based on population, perhaps a better question than why do we have so many gun related crimes in the U.S. is...why do we have so few?
According to the FBI approximately 4,000 crimes are prevented by concealed carry permit holders A DAY. No offense Cigarmaster, but just because you have never needed one doesn't mean others won't. It's completely irrelevant. Just because my house has never caught fire, does that mean I have no use for a smoke alarm or a fire extinguisher? I have never been in a car accident in my 36 years, does this mean I have no use for a seat belt?
Cigarmaster, from some of your posts I would gather that your not exactly the type of guy who has to check his bank account first before deciding whether or not to eat out. I'm also guessing that you probably live a comfortable life in a fairly decent neighborhood. Have you ever had to walk home in a bad one? Have you ever had to wait for a bus in one? Live in one?
No argument there. But how do we identify these people?
The idea that taking guns of the street will rid us of this problem is complete fallacy as is your 20 year minimum for gun possession. Did the death penalty stop people from murdering others? Texas has one of the highest rates of execution and their murder rate is still one of the highest in the country. You phrased this as a "battle of wills" but this isn't a question of will power. Its one of motive and when it comes to violent crime there are only three: Profit, Passion and Compulsion. Criminals who are driven by the profit motive such as gangbangers and the mafia are not deterred because the potential profit, to them, is greater than the consequences. And criminals never think they're going to get caught. Passion? You can't prevent a crime of passion (guy comes home and finds his wife in bed with another man and snaps) it's a spontaneous reaction that can never be foreseen. Compulsion? Serial killers and the mentally ill aren't deterred because they have a compulsion to kill and while they certainly know society might frown on what they do, they themselves do not see themselves as doing something wrong.
In the end, take away the guns, and they'll get more guns one way or another or find some other way to commit their evil deeds with the same end result. Take for example Columbine. That tragedy happened during the nationwide 10 year ban on assault weapons and in a "Gun Free Zone". Weren't those laws supposed to prevent that very thing from happening?
Again, this idea that the founders couldn't have imagined the violence we face today is pure BS. The exact same arguments made today in favor of gun control were made by the anti-gunners of yesteryear; going all the way back to the 1700s. In 1764, Marquis Cesare Beccaria published his book "On Crimes and Punishments", a book still credited for the advancement of modern day forensic science. Several of the founders were well acquainted with this book. Thomas Jefferson himself wrote in his own book "Commonplace Book" and copying from Beccaria, "...gun control disarms only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important or arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity. And which,if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants...These laws are not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts and not by thoughtful consideration."
Oh and just in case you still think that the crimes we face today didnt exist back then...The "Newburn Gazette" newspaper in North Carolina dated July 7, 1775 ran a story about a man that went nuts with a gun and a sword, killing three people with his gun and a fourth with a sword. He was stopped by local citizens...using their guns.
Tell that to the dead woman and her two children that were killed by her ex-husband in Castle Rock, Colorado. They were divorced, her ex-husband was a dirt bag. She had a restraining order on him. He shows up one night at her house threatening her and their children and proclaiming that he was going to kill them. She called the police who told her to stay inside and call back if he shows up again. He called and said that he was coming over to kill her and the children. He does. She calls the police who tell her to stay inside with the doors locked and to not let him in (duh!). No police car was sent. He busted in and murdered her and their children. There are actually several cases just like this one. Several of the families have attempted to sue the police, but a Supreme Court ruling killed every lawsuit. According to the law, the Police have no legal duty or requirement to protect you or your family and cannot be held accountable even if they are negligent in that regard. Translation: We'll try to help you, but regardless, you're on your own. (When seconds count; the police are just minutes away...or sometimes not at all!)
I bring up this example not to bash law enforcement but to show that ultimately only you are responsible for your own safety and well being. Would the lady and her kids I mentioned earlier still be alive if she had a gun? I don't know. But, I find it even more difficult to argue that she wouldn't.
Here are some things to contemplate on the issue of school violence and rampage killing in general. Namely, there is an elephant in the room.
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/
And on the "gun issue", which this isn't aside from the media's determination to make it into one. Their narrative is and always has been fear, and the reason for that is they want you to need them. If you break down the actual problem (rampage violence) you will find that there are many levels of prevention and they have nothing to do with gun control. But if you happen to agree with the fallacy that we can legislate guns away and use State power to solve the problem, here is something to consider first.
http://jeremyfarley.com/imagine-a-world-without-guns/
If after that, you are still convinced that there is not an armed citizen solution to this problem, consider this.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
and this.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3117
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/
And on the "gun issue", which this isn't aside from the media's determination to make it into one. Their narrative is and always has been fear, and the reason for that is they want you to need them. If you break down the actual problem (rampage violence) you will find that there are many levels of prevention and they have nothing to do with gun control. But if you happen to agree with the fallacy that we can legislate guns away and use State power to solve the problem, here is something to consider first.
http://jeremyfarley.com/imagine-a-world-without-guns/
If after that, you are still convinced that there is not an armed citizen solution to this problem, consider this.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
and this.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3117
Big + 1 to juvat and baron's posts.
I would only add that, IMO, in the search for answers regarding these types of horrific events (including such things as the many cases in recent memory of mothers killing their children) we should be looking more closely at the role of pharmaceutical "anti-depressant" drugs. Many investigators such as Jon Rappoport have documented the connection and pattern:
The Connecticut school shootings: Operation Chaos « Jon Rappoport's Blog
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-connecticut-school-shootings-operation-chaos/
I would only add that, IMO, in the search for answers regarding these types of horrific events (including such things as the many cases in recent memory of mothers killing their children) we should be looking more closely at the role of pharmaceutical "anti-depressant" drugs. Many investigators such as Jon Rappoport have documented the connection and pattern:
The Connecticut school shootings: Operation Chaos « Jon Rappoport's Blog
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/the-connecticut-school-shootings-operation-chaos/
This is credited as being said by Morgan Freeman and is going around on Facebook. I dunno if Mr. Freeman actually said this, but I think this is a great point, and I think we should take the advice in this piece about erasing the monster's name from our memory and never get him (it) any "attention" whatsoever.
Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday:
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday:
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
And as the last thing I am going to say on this matter, I do apologize if I offended anyone during this thread. I do not dislike anyone for having differing opinions from my opinions, and I respect your right to have your opinions and beliefs, and I hope that y'all respect my right to my opinions and beliefs. I do regret going off on a pretty political rant about the issue of gun control; we're going to have that discussion as friends, brothers, fathers, and as a nation of private citizens, but yesterday was not the time for it and I regret ever going there.
I, like most of you, am a father. I have a 12 year old daughter who is the light of my life and who is my reason for living. If I lost her, I'd be lost for good. I can in a way, and absolutely can't, imagine the absolute horror and grief that the parents of twenty beautiful little children are going through right now and will go through for the rest of their lives. I pray, and even cry a little, and ask God "Why" this happened. And some of us will claim that it is because of pure evil in this world, or what some see as lax gun control laws, or a failing of the mental health system in this country, or drugs, or a lack of morality and personal responsibility - none of those are the reasons why yesterday happened, or some of them are the reasons why yesterday happened, or all of them are the reasons why yesterday happened. But that doesn't matter to those parents.
I won't respond to this thread any longer after this post; I think the best thing for me is to keep my mouth shut and bow out of it. If someone wants to PM me about it, that's fine, but I'm gonna go on my way and just pray and pray and pray for those parents and families. I think that's the best thing I can do.
I pray that Almighty God comfort those who are grieving and leave those parents with nothing but the very best of memories of their babies until the end of days, and help them in time forget the horror of the 14th of December the best that any one of them possibly could. I pray that those beautiful children and those wonderful teachers and staff that gave their lives for them are singing and dancing with angels in the clouds and are playing all of the silliest, funniest games for all time. I believe that they are with the Lord and happy beyond our understanding. That they are laughing and singing and being loved and hugged and having their little cheeks pinched. I have to believe that.
I didn't know a single one of these children, but I miss them terribly. Rest in peace, little ones. We all love you.
Charlotte Bacon, Feb. 22, 2006
Daniel Barden, Sept. 25, 2005
Olivia Engel, July 18, 2006
Josephine Gay, Dec. 11, 2005
Ana M. Marquez-Greene, April 4, 2006
Dylan Hockley, March 8, 2006
Madeleine F. Hsu, July 10, 2006
Catherine V. Hubbard, June 8, 2006
Chase Kowalski, Oct. 31, 2005
Jesse Lewis, June 30, 2006
James Mattioli, March 22, 2006
Grace McDonnell, Nov. 4, 2005
Emilie Parker, May 12, 2006
Jack Pinto, May 6, 2006
Noah Pozner, Nov. 20, 2006
Caroline Previdi, Sept. 7, 2006
Jessica Rekos, May 10, 2006
Avielle Richman, Oct. 17, 2006
Benjamin Wheeler, Sept. 12, 2006
Allison N. Wyatt, July 3, 2006
Adults:
Rachel Davino, July 17, 1983
Mary Sherlach, Feb. 11, 1956
Victoria Soto, Nov. 4, 1985
Lauren Rousseau, June of 1982
Anne Marie Murphy, July 25, 1960
Dawn Hochsprung, June 28, 1965
I, like most of you, am a father. I have a 12 year old daughter who is the light of my life and who is my reason for living. If I lost her, I'd be lost for good. I can in a way, and absolutely can't, imagine the absolute horror and grief that the parents of twenty beautiful little children are going through right now and will go through for the rest of their lives. I pray, and even cry a little, and ask God "Why" this happened. And some of us will claim that it is because of pure evil in this world, or what some see as lax gun control laws, or a failing of the mental health system in this country, or drugs, or a lack of morality and personal responsibility - none of those are the reasons why yesterday happened, or some of them are the reasons why yesterday happened, or all of them are the reasons why yesterday happened. But that doesn't matter to those parents.
I won't respond to this thread any longer after this post; I think the best thing for me is to keep my mouth shut and bow out of it. If someone wants to PM me about it, that's fine, but I'm gonna go on my way and just pray and pray and pray for those parents and families. I think that's the best thing I can do.
I pray that Almighty God comfort those who are grieving and leave those parents with nothing but the very best of memories of their babies until the end of days, and help them in time forget the horror of the 14th of December the best that any one of them possibly could. I pray that those beautiful children and those wonderful teachers and staff that gave their lives for them are singing and dancing with angels in the clouds and are playing all of the silliest, funniest games for all time. I believe that they are with the Lord and happy beyond our understanding. That they are laughing and singing and being loved and hugged and having their little cheeks pinched. I have to believe that.
I didn't know a single one of these children, but I miss them terribly. Rest in peace, little ones. We all love you.
Charlotte Bacon, Feb. 22, 2006
Daniel Barden, Sept. 25, 2005
Olivia Engel, July 18, 2006
Josephine Gay, Dec. 11, 2005
Ana M. Marquez-Greene, April 4, 2006
Dylan Hockley, March 8, 2006
Madeleine F. Hsu, July 10, 2006
Catherine V. Hubbard, June 8, 2006
Chase Kowalski, Oct. 31, 2005
Jesse Lewis, June 30, 2006
James Mattioli, March 22, 2006
Grace McDonnell, Nov. 4, 2005
Emilie Parker, May 12, 2006
Jack Pinto, May 6, 2006
Noah Pozner, Nov. 20, 2006
Caroline Previdi, Sept. 7, 2006
Jessica Rekos, May 10, 2006
Avielle Richman, Oct. 17, 2006
Benjamin Wheeler, Sept. 12, 2006
Allison N. Wyatt, July 3, 2006
Adults:
Rachel Davino, July 17, 1983
Mary Sherlach, Feb. 11, 1956
Victoria Soto, Nov. 4, 1985
Lauren Rousseau, June of 1982
Anne Marie Murphy, July 25, 1960
Dawn Hochsprung, June 28, 1965
Amen That list should be on everyone's desk, mind, windows, comp desktops, and Christmas trees. It is now on mine right under the Angel on top. Thank you sir.
Victoria Soto was the teacher who hid her students and then died protecting them. She saved her entire class. She is a First Class Hero!
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