Potentially old Dunhill pipe. Opinions and help.

[CousinCRob]

I'm a young pipe smoker (20s) and I picked up the hobby from my father about 4 years ago. At some point in the past 20 years, an old man that he knew quit smoking and gave my father all of his pipes (80+ pipes). My old man went through these, put the ones he liked on his rack and the rest into bags in a cabinet. When I started smoking, he told me I could have anything out of those bags. I dug through them, and I found a small Dunhill that I liked. It smoked great even before I cleaned it up and refinished it. I knew Dunhill was a respected name, but not much else.

Just today it occurred to me to research how old this pipe is. As you can see, the patent# is 1343253/20. The year mark found after the word England is an underscored 0. From what I can tell from online research, this dates the pipe at 1930.

Does anyone have any expertise? Am I totally wrong here? If I am right, about how much is this worth (not that I plan on selling it). It is also worth noting that the silver band was put on by the old man that gave the pipe to my father. I assume this would reduce the value of the pipe because it is not original?

Thanks in advance for the expertise and wisdoms.

 

[georged]

The band is to hold the shank together after a split/crack developed. Not original, but shouldn't be removed because of that.

The stem got "kitchen table" re-shaped at some point, which looks goofy and is definitely not original, either.

It has also been re-finished, and not very well. See how the stamping is darker than the surrounding wood? That can be---and should have been---avoided. But it wasn't.

Those three things plus the R shape never being worth as much as more streamlined, elegant shapes, means the pipe is a marvelous workhorse smoker with little market value. Forced to guess, I'd say between $60 and $80.

(If the shank was crack-free, the finish original, and the stem unmolested, it would probably bring around $275)

 

[mikethompson]

A pipe is only worth what someone pays. You could throw it on ebay and get two guys who really want it and they bid $1000. Then the pipe is worth $1000. It could also sit there with a starting bid of 2 cents and get nothing. Then the pipe isn't worth 2 cents.

Nice that you've started out and already have a nice little collection going. I bet that Dunhill has some stories to tell.

 

[EA/DC]

If it smokes great then it is still a good pipe. And getting it for free is always great!
How is the bowl on the inside? Will it last for a few more years to enjoy?

 

[CousinCRob]

If it smokes great then it is still a good pipe. And getting it for free is always great!
How is the bowl on the inside? Will it last for a few more years to enjoy?

The bowl seems fine. No noticeable cracks or divots. Because the guy who had this pipe before my dad had so many pipes, I don't think he smoked this one a lot. If you look through his pipes you can tell that a select few are heavily smoked. Other than that, they are all in good shape. I also found a Charatan's from 1960 in there.

 

[EA/DC]

My advise would be to enjoy them as much as you can.

 

[CousinCRob]

The band is to hold the shank together after a split/crack developed. Not original, but shouldn't be removed because of that.

The stem got "kitchen table" re-shaped at some point, which looks goofy and is definitely not original, either.

It has also been re-finished, and not very well. See how the stamping is darker than the surrounding wood? That can be---and should have been---avoided. But it wasn't.

Those three things plus the R shape never being worth as much as more streamlined, elegant shapes, means the pipe is a marvelous workhorse smoker with little market value. Forced to guess, I'd say between $60 and $80.

(If the shank was crack-free, the finish original, and the stem unmolested, it would probably bring around $275)

The stem is not cracked. The man who had these pipes before just liked silver bands. Probably 70%+ of his collection has after-market bands on them.

What specifically about the stem looks reshaped? Here is a top-down picture just so you can get a better look at it. Online I cannot find any old Dunhill stems that look similar. My guess would be that it is a replacement entirely.

I assume the darker lettering/poor refinish is in regard to the lettering indentation being darker than the surface of the wood above? Implying excess sanding? I very lightly refinished this when I got it. (light sanding with 3k-10k grit sandpaper and some carnauba wax) but not enough to make a color difference like that. Is there a chance the darkness in the lettering is intentional? I found a few images online of Dunhills with similar looks. (attached)

I had been wondering what the R meant. So it's just bowl shape? Do you know what the 38 means on the other side?

Thanks

 

[snagstangl]

The stem looks like a replacement dental bit that was then further reshaped. But if it smokes well and you find it comfortable. Then just leave it alone and smoke it.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

When I see darker lettering on a shank, it usually suggests to me that the surface of the pipe was changed and/or cleaned and the person didn’t take the time to clean out the lettering and ended up sealing the dirt in the lettering with a wax coating.

 

[bluegrassbrian]

The stem is not cracked. The man who had these pipes before just liked silver bands. Probably 70%+ of his collection has after-market bands on them.

What specifically about the stem looks reshaped? Here is a top-down picture just so you can get a better look at it. Online I cannot find any old Dunhill stems that look similar. My guess would be that it is a replacement entirely.

I assume the darker lettering/poor refinish is in regard to the lettering indentation being darker than the surface of the wood above? Implying excess sanding? I very lightly refinished this when I got it. (light sanding with 3k-10k grit sandpaper and some carnauba wax) but not enough to make a color difference like that. Is there a chance the darkness in the lettering is intentional? I found a few images online of Dunhills with similar looks. (attached)

I had been wondering what the R meant. So it's just bowl shape? Do you know what the 38 means on the other side?

Thanks

He didn't say the stem is cracked. It's the shank.
When a crack is beginning around the mortise a band is mounted to strengthen it.
Or maybe the guy just liked putting bands on his pipes.

But that stem is wild.

 

[sablebrush52]

I had been wondering what the R meant.

It stands for "Root Finish", a stain that Dunhill introduced that wasn't as red as it's Bruyere finish.
38 is likely the model number.

The darkness inside the lettering could just be a build up of wax and dirt.

Congrats on having a great smoking pipe.

As for value, not much on the collector's market, due to the aftermarket band and the odd, clearly not Dunhill stem.

Other comments aside, George Dibos, Georged, is the top pipe repairman/restorer working today, and a Dunhill aficionado, and collector. He also has some of the finest Dunhill's I've seen. So, he's quite knowledgeable about collector values.

Someday I hope that George will see the light, dump those Dunhills, and get himself some real pipes worth smoking, like Barlings...

 

[CousinCRob]

He didn't say the stem is cracked. It's the shank.
When a crack is beginning around the mortise a band is mounted to strengthen it.
Or maybe the guy just liked putting bands on his pipes.

But that stem is wild.

Yes, I meant the shank. That's just me being absent minded. The shank is not cracked. Like I said, the guy just really liked silver bands. A majority of his collection has them. It is especially aggravating because they frequently cover up lettering. I also have a Jost's that is likely from the early 80s, but I can only read half of the lettering due to the band. Oh well. At least they do look nice.

As for the stem, it may be wild but it is very comfortable, so I'm happy with it. Unfortunate if I ever do want to sell it, but I doubt I will.

 

[CousinCRob]

It stands for "Root Finish", a stain that Dunhill introduced that wasn't as red as it's Bruyere finish.
38 is likely the model number.

The darkness inside the lettering could just be a build up of wax and dirt.

Someday I hope that George will see the light, dump those Dunhills, and get himself some real pipes worth smoking, like Barlings...

Thanks for the info. I figured it was just dirt and wax after a little more research.

Any reason you prefer Barlings and seem to not like Dunhills? I love having old pipes like this (I also have a 60s Charatan, 50s Kaywoodie, and 2 80s Peterson's) so maybe I'll keep an eye out for Barling in particular.

 

[kcghost]

You don't have a pipe of any real value there, but you do have one to enjoy.

 

[sablebrush52]

Thanks for the info. I figured it was just dirt and wax after a little more research.

Any reason you prefer Barlings and seem to not like Dunhills? I love having old pipes like this (I also have a 60s Charatan, 50s Kaywoodie, and 2 80s Peterson's) so maybe I'll keep an eye out for Barling in particular.

In truth, I'm just having a poke at George. Dunhills are fine pipes and I used to smoke them. It's just a personal preference. Once I discovered Barlings and how well they performed for me and how much I preferred their bits and stems, the Dunhills went in the drawer. Someone else will have the opposite reaction.

Still, three top tier Dunhill dealers that I used to correspond with all smoked Barlings for their personal use, and one of them put it to me this way, "For some British makers, like Charatan and Sasieni, the quality of the wood is the important part and the stems less so. For other makers, like Dunhill, the quality of the stem work is the most important part and the wood is not. For Barling it's all important." This from a dealer who sold hundreds of Dunhills a year, that's why he sold Dunhills and smoked Barlings.

Truth to be told, most pipes smoke equally well. A $20,000 Nordh is not going to smoke 100 times better than a $200 whatsis. One of my all time favorite pipes to smoke is a Brebbia Avanti, a very inexpensive pipe, that I bought on eBay, used, for $2. It performs like a champ for me and nobody owns a pipe for which I would trade it.

 

[georged]

To determine if the band is a repair or merely decorative, touch the end of the shank with a wet fingertip and immediately blow on it for a few seconds. If a thin radial line appears that's darker than the surrounding wood, say hello to Mr. Crack.

Regarding this:

I assume the darker lettering/poor refinish is in regard to the lettering indentation being darker than the surface of the wood above? Implying excess sanding? I very lightly refinished this when I got it. (light sanding with 3k-10k grit sandpaper and some carnauba wax) but not enough to make a color difference like that. Is there a chance the darkness in the lettering is intentional? I found a few images online of Dunhills with similar looks. (attached)


Your refinishing it WAS enough to make the color difference, and no, dark stamping was never something the factory did intentionally.

It's not accumulated dirt, either.

It's because stamping unavoidably breaks/shears wood fibers, and the open ends of those fibers act like tiny drinking straws for liquid stain if the stummel is ever re-finished. The wood absorbs more stain there than the surrounding smooth areas (which are mostly intact fibers.)

That the depressions also act like little troughs to "catch and hold" stain exacerbates the situation.

All that was never a concern to the factory because stamping is literally the last production step. Coloring and finishing is long complete.

 

[CousinCRob]

To determine if the band is a repair or merely decorative, touch the end of the shank with a wet fingertip and immediately blow on it for a few seconds. If a thin radial line appears that's darker than the surrounding wood, say hello to Mr. Crack.

Regarding this:

I assume the darker lettering/poor refinish is in regard to the lettering indentation being darker than the surface of the wood above? Implying excess sanding? I very lightly refinished this when I got it. (light sanding with 3k-10k grit sandpaper and some carnauba wax) but not enough to make a color difference like that. Is there a chance the darkness in the lettering is intentional? I found a few images online of Dunhills with similar looks. (attached)


Your refinishing it WAS enough to make the color difference, and no, dark stamping was never something the factory did intentionally.

It's not accumulated dirt, either.

It's because stamping unavoidably breaks/shears wood fibers, and the open ends of those fibers act like tiny drinking straws for liquid stain if the stummel is ever re-finished. The wood absorbs more stain there than the surrounding smooth areas (which are mostly intact fibers.)

That the depressions also act like little troughs to "catch and hold" stain exacerbates the situation.

All that was never a concern to the factory because stamping is literally the last production step. Coloring and finishing is long complete.

After the wet fingertip test, no crack. This guy just really liked silver bands. His name was Gene. I think I remember my dad telling me that Gene knew someone who worked at a store (probably jewelry if I had to guess) that was capable of banding pipes. Every so often Gene would take his recently acquire pipes to that store and have all of them banded. I have two other pipes of his (a Charatan's and a Jost's) that also have after market bands, and there are probably another dozen or two sitting in my dad's cabinet.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the frayed fibers take up NEW stain a lot more easily and make it darker. Correct? Because I, at least, never re-stained this pipe. I only sanded it a bit and applied wax. If I understand you correctly then either this was re-stained by a previous owner or it is just dirt and wax. It doesn't much matter to me as I like the way it looks regardless, but It's interesting to know if it has been re-stained previously.

However, for future reference, if I do re-stain a pipe, How do I avoid darkening the stamping? Could you explain that or maybe just link something to point me in the right direction?

Thanks

 

[ssjones]

Your Shape 38 pipe stem should look like this:

https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=313459

 

[CousinCRob]

Your Shape 38 pipe stem should look like this:

https://www.smokingpipes.com/pipes/estate/england/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=313459

View attachment 225740

Huh. That's interesting. Thanks for that. The very end of the mouth pieces look a bit similar. I suppose maybe someone could have done some very extensive work to make it what it is now. Or maybe it is just a replacement. I don't mind it. The very narrow part of my stem fits into my teeth in a certain way that makes it very comfortable and easy to hold for me.

 

[georged]

After the wet fingertip test, no crack. This guy just really liked silver bands. His name was Gene. I think I remember my dad telling me that Gene knew someone who worked at a store (probably jewelry if I had to guess) that was capable of banding pipes. Every so often Gene would take his recently acquire pipes to that store and have all of them banded. I have two other pipes of his (a Charatan's and a Jost's) that also have after market bands, and there are probably another dozen or two sitting in my dad's cabinet.

10-4 on no crack.

Nothing wrong with adding a bit of barbaric splendor "just because".

Banding after the fact is NOT simple or easy to do well, either, so Gene lucked out.

Covering nomenclature was never a "thing" until collecting got serious in the 1980's, so a bit of "bad luck in hindsight", there.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the frayed fibers take up NEW stain a lot more easily and make it darker. Correct? Because I, at least, never re-stained this pipe. I only sanded it a bit and applied wax. If I understand you correctly then either this was re-stained by a previous owner or it is just dirt and wax. It doesn't much matter to me as I like the way it looks regardless, but It's interesting to know if it has been re-stained previously.

If you didn't re-stain, either someone did before you, or you sanded enough to lighten the surrounding wood.

Either way, the darkened nomenclature is not what the pipe looked like when it was initially made.