Post- 2007 Tobacco List

[lawdawg]

^^^ I will check that out, Cosmic (Rubio and the cigar industry).
It all really boils down to what Sable said about us pipe 'baccy addicts being mad that the hammer is coming down on us, whether justifiably or not. I am still holding out hope that the de facto ban on new pipe tobacco blends will ease up in the future.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You know, everything we have been told that can and cannot happen is going on around us. Sutliff has several new blends that would have to of been "cooked" into the books to have been blends in the records. I am thinking RC 515. C&D has a whole slew of new blends. So, maybe they had a huge backlist books of orders when the hammer fell?
But, for there to be no new blends, we are seeing quite a few hit the shelves.
I don't think the cigarette industry wants to see pipe blends go away. They want the pipe industry to come to them and kiss their ring to get new blends out. Since these pipe companies are basically, one guy in a closet making blends. They cannot afford the requisite testing and stuff. But, Big Cig can afford it. Then we will have Camel Escudo, just like we have Camel Skoal. Look at the chewing tobacco labels... ALL of them. This is exactly the reason they came up with all of the testing and regulations. They don't want to stop new blends coming out. They want to release Cherry Balkan Marlboro, just like they have shelves full of Camel flavored Snuss hitting the shelves.
And, this is all a win win, because it turns all of us against an abstract anti-smoking Nazi that is non existent, while they rape our flakes and plugs right before our eyes, while we blame people that THEY hate as well.
If a writer had of come up with this idea for a story, people would say, "no, the American people aren't that stupid." But... We blame the lady with the fake cough, or the restaurant that doesn't allow smoking, an invisible entity trying to take away all smoking... while Big Cig takes another huge chunk out of the market... gobble gobble...

 

[jaytex1969]

This thread is depressing. I'm going to start another FRANK method thread. :nana:
I read an article many years ago that stated most alcoholics actually die from their chain smoking habit. Not sure how that ties in, but I found it interesting.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

lawdawg, all the anti smoking stuff has little to do with disease, health costs, etc.. That is what is used to justify the actions of the anti smoking Nazis. When the smoking population became well less than 50%, smoking was doomed. We live in a Democracy/Socialism Country, not a Republic. If less than 50% of the population drank any alcohol or filled their guts with disgusting fast food, that would suddenly be attacked as well. Even worse, the pipe smoking population is essentially non existent. No voting power, no significant tax implications, no money for lobbyists.

 

[erhardt85]

Yes. There would need to be high percentage participation in any efforts to lobby and petition for pipe Tobacco and cigars. Very high percentage. It takes thousands not millions. Maybe up to 100,000

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You guys are still discussing this as if the FDA has ANYTHING to do with anti-smoking nazis. Go back and look up what has triggered the FDA and who makes up the FDA board involved with the pipe and cigar issues. Listen to the older radioshows. Blaming the ANTI's is a red herring, and has NOTHING to do with this FDA movement. Nor does the government. This is the cigarette industry flexing it's muscles.
Blaming government and the ANTIs is like bringing baseball or pizza into the argument. This is BIG CIG. (period)

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Follow the money!!!

 

[erhardt85]

Can you briefly explain why the cig companies are pushing for that? For the sake of time. Maybe I'll get around to listening to those. If I can find them.

 

[sablebrush52]

Can you briefly explain why the cig companies are pushing for that? For the sake of time. Maybe I'll get around to listening to those. If I can find them.

Big Tobacco sees the vaping market as a very very profitable market to exploit. But they've been late to get onboard, so other, smaller, entities have staked out substantial territory. By creating a cutoff date that predates most of the activity built up in the vaping market, one that requires a very vaguely worded process, with equally vaguely defined fees required to get the FDA stamp of approval, BT knocks out the smaller competition and gives itself a monopoly on that market. More money for them with no competition.
Pipe tobaccos are collateral damage.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Also this new RYO phenomena- RYO stores sprung up across the country. They were places that took advantage of after-market large industrial rolling machines and re-outfitted them like slot machines. They put these in back rooms of stores that sold pipe tobaccos in bags. They also took advantage of bagged value pipe tobacco blends that did not have the same taxes on them as cigarettes, so they could sell a pound of tobacco for, and you could purchase a carton of tubes, go to their back rooms where Guido allowed you to use their machines to shred and roll up a carton of cigarettes. Voila, a carton of cigarettes for $8 +cost of tubes, avoiding all cigarette taxes.
You could even take a latakia blend and add it in to give you the flavors of long lost cigarette that had latakias or add some Captain Black for a more aromatic cigarette. Note: Camel Royals are a new cigarette that has the same flavorings as these Captain Black RYOs.
The tricky thing in courts was that while pipe tobaccos were less taxed, there was no real distinction between pipe tobacco and cigarette tobaccos.
So, when the FDA (AKA, Big Cigarette) went after RYO and vapes, the premium pipe tobaccos were caught in the nets. Big Cig was losing billions of dollars in revenue to RYO stores, which was utilizing the pipe tobacco loophole to bypass taxes.
Big Cig tried to use the manufacturers licensing angle to go after RYO, but RYO snuck around the ruling, by putting the machines in areas of the store called "clubs" where member paid a yearly membership to use the machines. So, for $1 a year, you were a member of a private club, and the stores were not manufacturing the cigarettes... legally.
So, the Big Cig FDA became what it is today, going after pipe tobaccos and cigars. It had nothing directly to do with anti-smokers, nor the government.
Lost money, bypassed taxes, and testing costs. Big Cig said that if they had to spend millions on testing their products and monitoring nicotine and tars, then everyone else should also. And, manufacturing fees. They wanted cigars and pipe tobaccos to pas as much ads they do for these legal fees. But, pipe tobacco and cigars are much smaller fish that cannot afford to swim in those Big Cig waters.
So, to be fair, when we talk about the FDA, we are talking about the two leading cigarette manufacturers. They occupy the board and control all of the laws we are facing now.
Does that help? Follow the money.

 

[lawdawg]

To sum up Cosmic and Sable's posts above, and because throwbacks to ancient Roman politics are cool and as relevant as ever, "cui bono?" Who benefits?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Also, the waters between Big Cig, the anti-smoking movement, and the FDA got muddied together back when the Supreme Court ruled that Big Cig had to market an effective anti-smoking campaign. So, it is also cigarette companies that are making all of the anti-smoking campaigns on TV, and they want all tobacco products to have those labels... like cigarette boxes have to do. It is one large ying-yang mish mash working to just make money. They get money on telling people to quit, and make money on selling cigarettes. It is literally the same people, same marketing people, selling the coming and goings of tobaccos.

So, when you have some woman does a fake-cough around you and your pipe, and you want to blame some group of people, tobacco nazis... it's Big Cigarette that has marketed that cough. They marketed those non-smoking areas.
It's quite a weird ouroboros of self-devouring going on. But, they will make LOTS of money before it's over. And, keep in mind... to Big Cig, it is less about your enjoyment, and ALL about making money. And, it always has been.

 

[foursidedtriangle]

Around the world anti-smoking push is consistent - put warning labels and tax tax tax. I do not believe the case of pipe tobacco will be any different, it wouldnt make any sense for it to be. They want to warn off new people starting smoking with warnings and justify taxing by recouping healthcare costs. So there.

 

[sonnyblack]

Great thread and one of the reasons I joined the forum. Discussions and opinions may turn into lengthy debate, but it’s all kept civil. A true sign of intelligence and sincerity IMHO.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Thanks, sonny, but give us a few more tries and it may not always turn out that way!

 

[dontbeaburleyman]

Since I'm familiar with the pharmacy business, I'm going to draw a parallel.
In the years leading up to the implementation of the Affordable Care Act, Big Pharma purchased exclusive manufacturing rights for many generic medications and became manufacturers of both the brand name and generic products (double dipping of sorts). Once the ADA came online, they were in a position to monopolize many pharmaceuticals and charge whatever they wanted (because they were the sole provider of a particular medication).
Likewise, Big Cig is positioning itself to become the sole provider of many individual blends of pipe tobacco and will be able to charge whatever they want. They'll probably do this with vapes also. They have the money and overhead to be able to go through the approval process and makes lots of money in the end!
Just a hunch, but if Big Cig is anything like Big Pharma, this is what is going to happen.