Openness And Modification

[frozenchurchwarden]

I just opened up my fourth button since getting a needle file a few days ago, this Savinelli 614 went from being my most restrictive pipe to just less than the best.

From where I'm standing I've significantly upgraded multiple pipes for $5 plus sore fingers.

But this certainly isn't a new, or black and white subject.
http://passionforpipes.squarespace.com/neills-blog/2012/12/6/the-perils-of-pipe-remodeling-for-buyers-and-sellers.html

According to some people, that I've modified the buttons on two $200+ pipes this weekend is some sort of tragedy, and severely diminished their value.

Personally I considered them to be of severely diminished value in their original condition.

I have to wonder if that applies more specifically to a complete re-drilling of the airway or generally shoddy work, and not just knocking off the corners inside the airway that should never have been left there in the first place.

The article mentions people "ruining" the smoking qualities of a pipe by opening the draw.

And yet recently I've been reading about how highly prized an open draw is.

Which makes me wonder, how many times has this industry/culture swayed back and forth between an open draw being good or bad?

Have any of you experienced downsides to an especially open draw?
It would also be interesting to get some feedback about how people feel about airway modification.

Does it affect value for you?

Have your experiences with modified airways been good or bad?

Does it cause you a lot of grief in the estate market?

Do you have a point where you consider a modification as having gone too far?

 

[fluffie666]

Us pipers are an obsessive breed. In buying and selling there is a lot of room for error and dishonesty. People are willing to spend a lot of money on pipes. It's important to be meticulous and honest when selling to someone. Knowing what I'm selling, being honest and having the correct information is the most important thing to a seller that is worth buying from.

 

[wayneteipen]

Interesting topic for discussion. I would imagine you'll get a mix of answers from both sides of the debate. I suppose whether modifying a pipe is good or bad depends on one's perspective. If you purchase and collect pipes to smoke and don't care much about their "collectability" and if the modification is well done and improves the performance of the pipe then it would be a positive thing. If your perspective is that of a collector, modifying pipes might be akin to non-stock parts on an antique car and may be viewed as diminishing it's value because it's not in original condition.
For me, personally, I buy pipes to smoke. Pipes aren't a financial investment for me or a collectors hobby so modifying a pipe to perform better doesn't diminish the value from my perspective and may even increase the value as far as I'm concerned. If I purchase a pipe that has issues, I'll fix it if I like the pipe enough to invest the time.

 

[ssjones]

I'm torn on this issue and it was interesting to re-read Neills essay. I don't like a wide-open draft hole and would be upset to buy an estate that was modified in this way. However, I've bought a ton of estate pipes and it's incredibly unlikely that at least one modified pipe hasn't found it's way onto my rack.
My first Ashton, and 50th birthday pipe from my wife was a train wreck of engineering. This one was opened up in the shank and at the stem. I'll never sell that pipe, but someday my estate will I suppose. It's unlikely anyone will know it was modified and the next owner will receive a great smoking pipe.
The last commentor on the blog nailed it:

If you want "original" pipes then collect unsmoked ones.

Even those can be suspect, as Mike G points out in his comments.

 

[georged]

The first rule of opening a pipe's airway, or "modifying the engineering" or whatever you want to call it, is... if it smokes OK, leave it alone.
The second one is, if it does NOT smoke OK, increasing the airflow---if done correctly---will probably make it smoke better.
Arguments come about because it's a percentage game: some pipes with perfectly crafted airways smoke badly, and some with casual-at-best drilling smoke just fine. There are no guarantees, only favorable odds. Pipes are funny that way.
In practice, another reason the anti-enlargement crowd feels the way they do is because they've only seen it done incorrectly. Their only experience is with hack work, or incomplete work, which indeed can be dreadful.
As for spoiling the value of collectables, that isn't categorical, either. It all depends on how skillfully it was done. "If a little is good a lot must be better!" attitude is a pipe killer, too. The whole increasing the airflow thing DOES have an upper limit, and a pipe smokes terribly when it is exceeded.

 

[crazypipe]

A very good read, Thank You ::

 

[dmcmtk]

I read Neill's article last night, the comments are just as interesting, and worth reading!

 

[samcoffeeman]

This is a great topic of discussion. Thank you for bringing this to the table. I believe it greatly depends on a number of factors. Brand/value/history/originality all come to mind as far as the pipe is concerned. Talent/tools/experience for the restorer.
I have also experimented with opening up pipes recently. I have a taper 9/64" drill bit and a dremel I use for opening up some stems. I have 3 extra long drill bits for opening shanks(9/64", 5/32", 11/64"). I don't usually open up the shank bore on an estate, I run the appropriate drill bit through to break up any cake that has built up in the shank before cleaning. Cake builds everywhere, in the shank, the mortise, even in the stem and on the tenon on occasion. I lean towards leaving the shank bore as is. I've had my errors though.
I was trying to do this on a badly caked and heavily smoked old Sasieni Four Dot Ashford. This is a $200+ estate pipe. I could not get the cake out of the shank to my satisfaction. When I drilled the shank bore, the bit didn't go in right and the draft hole/shank is now somewhat oval shaped. I chose to keep the pipe as a result of my error, instead of selling a improperly restored pipe. It took many retorts and Q-tips/pipe cleaners but I eventually did get it to smoking condition. I finished the restoration, the pipe has the original stinger, and guess what? It smokes just fine, quite well in fact, but I hate that I messed with the history of it.
The only stems I mess with are replacement stems. I recently have had multiple replacement stems made for old estates, Barling's, Sasieni, Comoy's. The pre-molded stems are just terrible in engineering. I open the replacement stems up, and always divulge when a stem has been replaced and re-engineered.
The last issue is, if it is such a high dollar pipe, it shouldn't need modification to smoke well. However, I do see some pipes that cost good money that have features I would consider amateur. Especially pipes with acrylic stems that have a very short fishtail in the button. I like my stems to have a deep fishtail draft at the button, one of the most important features in the smoking quality of a pipe IMO. That last 1/4"+ of opening allows the smoke to expand and cool one last time before it hits your delicate palate.

 

[samcoffeeman]

I see the thread on your Nordings now. Changing the chamber dynamics is not something I have attempted, nor would I. I guess you like a more U shaped chamber than a tapered one. Not sure how that will affect the smoking quality, but as another member said, thinning the bowl walls from either outside or in can only lessen the lifetime of a pipe.

 

[xrundog]

An artisan pipe is usually made with very specific engineering. I am loath to mess with them.
But factory pipes are made fast. Sometimes a worker will miss a step that affects the smoking negatively. Altering the pipe in this instance is fixing a mistake.
A lot of the older bone tenon pipes were made with out of the box manufactured tenons. Sometimes these are pretty restrictive. You buy an old little used pipe and wonder why it wasn't smoked much, then you try and smoke it you understand why. It's because the draft is way too narrow. It can be like trying to drink a too thick milk shake with a straw. Drilling or reaming the tenon to the next size makes a world of difference in a good way.

Same with Kaywoodie stingers. Certain batches were made with really tight draws. The easiest thing to do is simply sell the pipe. But if you otherwise like the pipe, removing the stinger and drilling it out makes a world of difference. It's risky. But it can really pay off.

If you went through all my pipes, except for obvious external repairs, you wouldn't know which ones have been altered.
Now having said all that, if you alter a pipe in an obvious way, like drilling a shank to hold a filter on a pipe that doesn't normally take filters, that's an important modification that should be disclosed.
Otherwise, how often do you see sales listing showing the draft diameter? Not often I think.

 

[ssjones]

Otherwise, how often do you see sales listing showing the draft diameter? Not often I think.

I'd say just about never. And, we probably receive modified estate pipes more often then we know.

 

[georged]

Otherwise, how often do you see sales listing showing the draft diameter? Not often I think.

.

.

.

I'd say just about never. And, we probably receive modified estate pipes more often then we know.

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Exactly this. What people (justifiably) loathe to see done to a pipe is 1) poor workmanship in the NAME of "airway opening," and 2) when someone thought bigger must be better so opened the airway to absurd dimensions. (shudder)
When it is done right, only those with access to hole diameter measuring tools who know exactly what to look for can tell anything was done at all. It doesn't take much of an increase in diameter to significantly increase the cross sectional area of a tube. The unmodified funnel shape & finish of a given make of pipe must also be known.
I've enlarged the airway of thousands of pipes. (I'm in the middle of a box of $20K-worth of uber-grades as we speak, in fact) And I'm glad to finally see the tone of a conversation about this subject remain balanced and fact-based. There are too many smokers on BOTH sides of the issue who do nothing but shout emotion-based dogma back and forth at each other. There certainly were in the past, anyway. Maybe that's finally changing. Thanks, frozenchurchwarden for opening the discussion, and thanks to those who have replied to this point for keeping it sane. :lol:

 

[waxmojo]

I agree with xrundog. I will not modify an artisan pipe in any way, but a factory pipe is another thing. Having said that, I look at my rack of hand made pipes and don't think that any of them would have needed to be opened in the first place.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

-Samcoffeeman

I see the thread on your Nordings now. Changing the chamber dynamics is not something I have attempted, nor would I. I guess you like a more U shaped chamber than a tapered one. Not sure how that will affect the smoking quality, but as another member said, thinning the bowl walls from either outside or in can only lessen the lifetime of a pipe.

My opinion of those is that they are thoroughly in the category of "experimentation". A sacrifice in the name of discovery. I would probably rather give them away than sell them, but they are currently my most used pipes so that's not likely.

Now that I've used a large Savinelli 320 I consider that a close enough equivalent without modification, the taper on that bowl is reasonable.
This thread is more about modifying the air passage, something that applies much more broadly and that I'm going to have a hard time not thinking about every time I look at a button from now on.

 

[okiescout]

Great topic.

Can be said of many things, firearms for example. If you are not buying through a reputable source, you had better beware or price it accordingly.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

-Xrundog

But factory pipes are made fast. Sometimes a worker will miss a step that affects the smoking negatively. Altering the pipe in this instance is fixing a mistake.

In the case of my Savinelli 614 it's obvious that the stem was pre-formed and it would actually have been impossible to achieve the airway dimensions I'm looking for with that method.

The slot can still be pre-formed as long as they drill the full round diameter of the airway partway into the slot, as with the one example of the 320 that I have, giving space for the airflow to transition from one shape to the other, avoiding any bottleneck. That pipe still benefitted a little from cleaning up the corners but didn't need drastic re-shaping, it was fairly good from the start.
What specifically interests me is that my two Ashton buttons seem to have been intentionally made with a bottleneck in the button, the round airway precisely stops where the slot in the button begins, had the airway been drilled a quarter inch farther into the button the draw would have been fine, had the slot been extended farther into the stem it would have been fine, but there was precisely no overlap, and no effort was made to smooth the transition between the two shapes.

I can imagine reasons why it was done the way it was done, but that's just postulating.

 

[ssjones]

@georged - it is good to see you on the forum. I'd say there aren't many repairmen around that have Georges experience or expertise.

 

[fluffie666]

I should explain my position because when i wake up at 3:am, I come off as kind of a d-bag.
I open up a lot of draught holes on my pipes. No matter what kind of pipe it is. If expeience tells me that it will smoke better and provided that I am will keep the pipe for myself, I will open it up indefinetly.

On the other hand, I have pipes that I will either refurbish or restore to resell. I do this as a hobby but pipes are truly a passion of mine. Reselling pipes, to me comes with a certain responsibility because there are a lot of pipe smokers and pipe collectors out there that are looking for the condition of an old pipe they buy to be as close to original as possible. In my mind this would be a restored pipe. Restored meaning brought back to the original state. There are a group of us pipers out there and that's what they are looking for. If I am selling a pipe, I am very descriptive in explaining what was done to the pipe.

A refurbished pipe I would describe as being brought back to a state where it is as fresh as possible, briar shined, polished stem and possibly drilled out. I try not to modify the pipes all that much but if it's just a good smoker someone wants I give that option too. I will drill it out if necessary but I will also let the potential buyer know what was done to it. It's very important to me that I make the differences of refurbished and restored pipes to anyone who is going to purchase one. Also, with respect to the artical and with respect to good selling practices, it's important for me to know what I am selling. If an expensive pipe is up for sale I feel responsible to know why it will fetch top dollar from a customer. These are the pipes I will restore (bring back to their original state). I feel obligated to a buyer to tell them what I did to that pipe and how I kept it original or if I modified it in any way. I feel, before I put a pipe up that I should be able to inform a buyer that does not know why a pipes price goes through the roof, to have the information at hand to let a buyer know why a particular pipe is so expensive. This may not be everyone's practice but I am just that neurotic about selling practices.

Now, I sell pipes. I get some damn fine pipes but I buy estates ranging from ten pipes to over 100. I tend not to buy off the internet and a lot of my sales are done face to face. I do this as a labor of love and naturally, I want to get top dollar for what I sell. All my profits go to buying more and better equipment so I can bring people better quality estate pipes. It's what I love to do and it is why people trust me to sell pipes to them. If something is not worth doing right and with every detail to the bitter end... then why do it at all?

 

[georged]

@georged - it is good to see you on the forum. I'd say there aren't many repairmen around that have Georges experience or expertise.

Hi back atcha, Mr. Jones. :D
Thanks for the kind words, but it might literally be the case these days. Repair work kills off people about as fast as they jump in the water, then the few who stick with it until they get truly good tend to lay low after their customer list grows to a certain point. I think Ronni B. is still at it, and he does excellent work, and Chuck Gray is still the go-to guy for meer, amber, and the historical stuff, but I don't know any of the others. (Well, Tim West, of course, but he is trying to focus more on pipe making than repair anymore, plus he never cared much for the semi-insanity that's required for working on high-end collectables. :lol: )
I periodically get fed up with the inherent limitations and complications of online interaction and just shut it off, but recently decided I might as well give it another shot. I just like pipes and pipe people, and they are hard to come by anywhere but the Internet anymore. :lol: That, and Kevin seems to have struck a good balance between moderation/control and the Wild Wild West on his boards.
It's been fun so far, anyway.
PS -- is that a 1960's MGB?

 

[ssjones]

I can say that George did steller work on re-drilling the bowl on an Ashton Pebble Grain. The bowl was impossibly small for an LX size pipe. George opened it to 22 mm and the work was fantastic. A good example for this thread as no one would have ever known the pipe had been modified.
@GeorgeD: that is my '79 MGB