No More Ivory On Pipes...And No Resell Of Estates With Ivory
- Thread starter zack24
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And! Some people think of the Constitution as a living thing, ergo it can be morphed into something the signers never envisioned through fiat or judicial rulings.
I do think that, should the prohibition last, those willing to pay for the proper inspection and paperwork will see an increase in value of items with legal ivory inlays and such as there will be less of it available. Also, prohibition stimulates collecting, so the end result may not be all bad for those selling such items. It's also a good thing for those who like to deal in black market items, leaving the government out of the entire transaction. So some will no doubt prosper from the regulation, while those that wish to be law abiding will lose out.
Still, the idea that the Congress is now irrelevant and that only the Executive and Judicial branches matter is a bit unsettling. Ruling by fiat is draconian and smacks of a third world government mentality. We do get the government that we deserve though. Obviously, a lot of voters like the idea being governed by a monarch or dictator.
I do think that, should the prohibition last, those willing to pay for the proper inspection and paperwork will see an increase in value of items with legal ivory inlays and such as there will be less of it available. Also, prohibition stimulates collecting, so the end result may not be all bad for those selling such items. It's also a good thing for those who like to deal in black market items, leaving the government out of the entire transaction. So some will no doubt prosper from the regulation, while those that wish to be law abiding will lose out.
Still, the idea that the Congress is now irrelevant and that only the Executive and Judicial branches matter is a bit unsettling. Ruling by fiat is draconian and smacks of a third world government mentality. We do get the government that we deserve though. Obviously, a lot of voters like the idea being governed by a monarch or dictator.
Warren, The killer is that ALL sales across state lines will be banned- no exception. The only way you can sell instate is with the proper paperwork...AND IT doesn't exist in most cases! There is no physical means to determine the age of ivory except a refractive test on mammoth ivory- the cross grain is at a different angle than elephant ivory...
I had two japanese pipes that were totally made of ivory. Bowls and stems. I gave them to a pipe making friend that cut them up and used the parts as inserts and extensions on some of his very high grade masterpieces. Now they are considered contraband, and not allowed for inter state sales?? To the uninformed they may think that meerschaum pipes are Ivory as well. And what happens to all of the collectors of netsuke?? This can go on and on and doesn't mean crapola IMO.
Just creates another black market category.
Just creates another black market category.
Trust me! I used to be in law enforcement. If there's a market, the items will sell. A lot of effort and moneys are spent trying to catch poachers, guides, dealers and etc. of protected species. Certain parts of protected animals still find their way into China and Korea from Alaska. Rhino horn still sells very well around the world. Zack you are underestimating the tenacity of the market.
We reside in a country that refuses to or is unable to protect its borders much less stop the illegal taking and selling of certain species. If there is a buyer for a pipe with ivory in it, a transaction will occur. You might find this hard to believe, but heroin is an illegal drug and a tremendous amount of it is imported into and sold in the US (I bet you know what part of your town one would go to purchase drugs. Most people know what takes place and where in their environs, even if they do not participate.) Hell, we can't even keep knock-off handbags or jeans off the sidewalks of New York or out of the sidewalk kiosks in Washington D.C. How is the government going to stop the sale of a pipe with ivory inlay.
A government can make all the laws and regulation it wishes and as long as the enforcement mechanism is not up to the job those laws and regs will, for the most part be unenforceable and ignored by certain people.
We reside in a country that refuses to or is unable to protect its borders much less stop the illegal taking and selling of certain species. If there is a buyer for a pipe with ivory in it, a transaction will occur. You might find this hard to believe, but heroin is an illegal drug and a tremendous amount of it is imported into and sold in the US (I bet you know what part of your town one would go to purchase drugs. Most people know what takes place and where in their environs, even if they do not participate.) Hell, we can't even keep knock-off handbags or jeans off the sidewalks of New York or out of the sidewalk kiosks in Washington D.C. How is the government going to stop the sale of a pipe with ivory inlay.
A government can make all the laws and regulation it wishes and as long as the enforcement mechanism is not up to the job those laws and regs will, for the most part be unenforceable and ignored by certain people.
Government controls etc. are to touchy a subject for myself, therefore before I end up on the banned list, I will stay out of this discussion. I am sorry for those, like Zack, that are caught in the crossfire.
I'm sorry, I don't see an executive order like that carrying any weight. You can't dictate the law from that seat as the executive branch does not make the laws. Of course that doesn't stop the branch from trying. Now more than ever.
One would think that a pipe made before 1990; generally would have ivory acquired from before that date.
+1trailspike We've become sheep, led around by the flavor of the day. This like many things will be a distant memory soon enough. We can't and don't enforce over half of what becomes law. This will do nothing but make them more valuable. V-V
trailboss: There are plenty of countries that do not have ivory bans. Legally harvested ivory is sold at reasonable prices. It is only a few countries, such as ours, that get duped into these nonsensical operations meant to assuage the masses.
It's akin to the hunting of polar bears in Canada, Russia and other countries. If I remember correctly Americans can purchase a native hunter's permit, go on the hunt, kill the bear, they just are not allowed to bring the pelt back into the country. In Alaska and most other northern climes locations polar bear hunting is strictly limited to aboriginal hunters. Norway and Russia are the only countries that prohibit any hunting of the polar bear. Russia does so in spite of being signatory to a treaty which would permit hunting by the indigenous Chukchi.
Woodsroad has it right. Only honest folk are effected by these regulations. The dishonest and the "kinda" honest will be the beneficiaries of these regulations. And, in my experience, the world is predominately made up of the "kinda" or the "nearly always" honest.
It's akin to the hunting of polar bears in Canada, Russia and other countries. If I remember correctly Americans can purchase a native hunter's permit, go on the hunt, kill the bear, they just are not allowed to bring the pelt back into the country. In Alaska and most other northern climes locations polar bear hunting is strictly limited to aboriginal hunters. Norway and Russia are the only countries that prohibit any hunting of the polar bear. Russia does so in spite of being signatory to a treaty which would permit hunting by the indigenous Chukchi.
Woodsroad has it right. Only honest folk are effected by these regulations. The dishonest and the "kinda" honest will be the beneficiaries of these regulations. And, in my experience, the world is predominately made up of the "kinda" or the "nearly always" honest.
How is the customs or shipping inspector supposed to know if he/she is looking at ivory, bone, stone, or exotic
wood inlays? If they confiscate anything they see, it's theft; it may be legal theft, but it's taking someone else's
property without clearly establishing the offense. I feel badly for musicians who have or might lose their
instruments. I guess some law firm should get busy issuing the necessary paperwork to establish the
provenance of specific musical instruments, etc., for beaucoup d'argent per dossier. As Ross Perot used to
say in his nasal twang, it's sad.
wood inlays? If they confiscate anything they see, it's theft; it may be legal theft, but it's taking someone else's
property without clearly establishing the offense. I feel badly for musicians who have or might lose their
instruments. I guess some law firm should get busy issuing the necessary paperwork to establish the
provenance of specific musical instruments, etc., for beaucoup d'argent per dossier. As Ross Perot used to
say in his nasal twang, it's sad.
just another example of socialist bureaucrats controlling another aspect of our lives because "they know what's better for us" than we do
Its all about extremes. And we cant seem to elect anybody in the common sense middle. No one wants to see an elephant killed strictly for its tusk like we did with the buffalo for its skins. But as a former pool shooter I know the prior ban was working just fine. Pool cues quit having ivory in them, a synthetic alternative was made, and everybody I at least knew was happy.
Although its different its not, we have a Government in General that as example will try to ban cigarettes or more accurately raise monies by its way over taxation in the name of our health and lets not forget NY city and Big Gulps but will FDA approve the use of plastic in bread for elasticity. I also bet money that if they ever truly banned tobacco cigars would have a miraculous exemption.
Although its different its not, we have a Government in General that as example will try to ban cigarettes or more accurately raise monies by its way over taxation in the name of our health and lets not forget NY city and Big Gulps but will FDA approve the use of plastic in bread for elasticity. I also bet money that if they ever truly banned tobacco cigars would have a miraculous exemption.
With all due respect, there is no such thing.
Either you support the Constitution as written, or you do not. Anything else is obfuscation and political expediency. The Founding Documents, and the American Spirit that they encompass, are what set us apart from the rest of the world. If you compromise your basic principles, then you no longer have basic principles.
I believe in the greatness of civilized discourse. The key word being civilized. I also have a keen sense of right and wrong. If my mind is to change I will need to hear a strong, cogent and, hopefully, terse argument.
I will not agree to something simply to avoid argument if my position is unassailable.
I also hate to see "common sense" used instead of "wishy-washy". Common sense does not mean that one avoids the arguments which come with spirited debate. Common sense is what tells you not to touch a hot stove. Common sense is what you use to determine the proper speed to drive on an icy road. Common sense comes from experience and knowledge.
Common sense is not the meek and quiet acceptance of an opinion you know as wrong simply to avoid the stress of having to defend your own beliefs. Common sense is not a synonym for only the other guy's opinions matter.
Middle of the road should be changed to "muddle of the road." Being "middle of the road" simply means that one will soon be road kill. People need to have values and beliefs that they will battle for. Without these you are simply making decisions based on what you perceive will be best for you, or worse yet, simply accepting what others say you must, taking the easy way out, not having to understand the argument and meekly accepting what the other side says is best for you and yours.
I have little respect for the "muddle of the road" voters. The positive for the middle of the road voter is that they do not need to invest time and effort in learning both sides of the argument. Neither do they need to risk anything of value by taking sides. They get by through standing on the sidelines, wringing their hands, and wondering why some people have beliefs they would be willing to argue about or, horrors, willing to fight and die for. Middle of roaders also seem to spend a lot of time running in circles, saying tsk tsk a lot and peeing down their leg before being rendered irrelevant by becoming road kill.
I will not agree to something simply to avoid argument if my position is unassailable.
I also hate to see "common sense" used instead of "wishy-washy". Common sense does not mean that one avoids the arguments which come with spirited debate. Common sense is what tells you not to touch a hot stove. Common sense is what you use to determine the proper speed to drive on an icy road. Common sense comes from experience and knowledge.
Common sense is not the meek and quiet acceptance of an opinion you know as wrong simply to avoid the stress of having to defend your own beliefs. Common sense is not a synonym for only the other guy's opinions matter.
Middle of the road should be changed to "muddle of the road." Being "middle of the road" simply means that one will soon be road kill. People need to have values and beliefs that they will battle for. Without these you are simply making decisions based on what you perceive will be best for you, or worse yet, simply accepting what others say you must, taking the easy way out, not having to understand the argument and meekly accepting what the other side says is best for you and yours.
I have little respect for the "muddle of the road" voters. The positive for the middle of the road voter is that they do not need to invest time and effort in learning both sides of the argument. Neither do they need to risk anything of value by taking sides. They get by through standing on the sidelines, wringing their hands, and wondering why some people have beliefs they would be willing to argue about or, horrors, willing to fight and die for. Middle of roaders also seem to spend a lot of time running in circles, saying tsk tsk a lot and peeing down their leg before being rendered irrelevant by becoming road kill.
I doubt very much anyone would come knocking at your door asking, "Sir, I've heard rumors you are incorporating ivory in your ferules. Now come peacefully, or we will use excessive force." Keep this in mind: A law is only as strong as it's enforced. My vote is to use it all up quickly and clean your hands of it, if it's a big concern of yours.
ocpsdan: Do not treat the situation so blithely.
Trust me, if a competitor tells the authorities that you are using a prohibited substance in your work, since the hard work has been done, someone will show up at your door with a search warrant. If a competitor selling pipes wants to reduce the competition reporting the offender is a very logical response.
If you were selling pipes with ivory fittings and I was selling pipes that were legal. I would contact the proper authorities and, with their authorization and assistance (read purchase money) I would order a pipe from you. Upon receipt of pipe the authorities would file for the warrant, swear out the affidavit before a judge and then serve the warrant. No judge would refuse the warrant with the log of activities and the pipe in front of them.
Your next step is engaging an attorney and then spending a great deal of money trying to salvage your business and good name. Lots of luck with that! Plus all of your ivory will be seized and most likely destroyed or sold to someone with the proper documentation for possession.
The world is a nasty place full of people looking to gain an edge. You gotta have a plan if you are going to conduct a shady business and compete with career nasties. I think you might be a little too naive to engage in such a business.
Trust me, if a competitor tells the authorities that you are using a prohibited substance in your work, since the hard work has been done, someone will show up at your door with a search warrant. If a competitor selling pipes wants to reduce the competition reporting the offender is a very logical response.
If you were selling pipes with ivory fittings and I was selling pipes that were legal. I would contact the proper authorities and, with their authorization and assistance (read purchase money) I would order a pipe from you. Upon receipt of pipe the authorities would file for the warrant, swear out the affidavit before a judge and then serve the warrant. No judge would refuse the warrant with the log of activities and the pipe in front of them.
Your next step is engaging an attorney and then spending a great deal of money trying to salvage your business and good name. Lots of luck with that! Plus all of your ivory will be seized and most likely destroyed or sold to someone with the proper documentation for possession.
The world is a nasty place full of people looking to gain an edge. You gotta have a plan if you are going to conduct a shady business and compete with career nasties. I think you might be a little too naive to engage in such a business.
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