Nicotine Absorption

[davek]

I had a bunch of Burley leaf which bit me bad. I didn't toast it but I dried it crispy, then coated it with a small amount of honey water, then dried again and stoved it (moist). Not "by the book", but that's me. I tried for minimal honey since I dislike casing. Honey for non-reducing sugars.
It bites much less, much less than only stoved Burley. I changed the taste some, but it's still a good taste. Too much sugar and it tastes like SWR.
I still can't figure out why cigar leaf doesn't bite me at all though. My current smoke is this experiment mixed with cigar leaf. Good stuff.

 

[brightleaf]

pH may be a factor davek. I have read that cigar smoke is more alkaline than cigarette smoke, although I do not know why. Here is an excerpt you may find interesting. From TobaccoTruthDoc

WHAT AMMONIA DOES

AMMONIA IN TOBACCO REACTS WITH REDUCING SUGARS TO FORM NONVOLATILE FLAVOR PRECURSORS. THE FLAVORS ARE PRODUCED DURING SMOKING. THE DEGREE AND TYPE OF FLAVOR CHANGE IMPARTED BY AMMONIA/SUGAR PRODUCTS DEPENDS TO A LARGE DEGREE ON HOW STRONGLY THE AMMONIA AND SUGAR ARE FORCED TOGETHER. THERE IS A COMPLEX SEQUENCE OF REACTIONS THAT OCCUR, AND THE CLOSER ONE GETS TO THE ENDPOINT BEFORE MAKING CIGARETTES, THE BETTER THE TASTE (IN GENERAL)* THE DETAILED

CHEMISTRY IS LITTLE UNDERSTOOD, BUT IS SIMILAR TO THAT INVOLVED IN PRODUCTION OF AMMONIA CARAMELS.
CIGARETTE SMOKE AMMONIA IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. IT EFFECTIVELY SCAVENGES THOSE SMOKE COMPOUNDS THAT LEAD TO HARSHNESS. IT CAN LIBERATE FREE NICOTINE FROM THE BLEND, WHICH IS ASSOCIATED WITH INCREASES IN IMPACT AND "SATISFACTION" REPORTED BY SMOKERS.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Brightleaf, intersdting, but I wonder what context that is from, as all tobacco has ammonia in it, from the death process, and curing and then sweating is when the gassing occurs. In a high sugar leaf, like Virginia, the ammonia give way to a sour vinegar gas, which I have been trying to capture and maintain in my own Virginia processes.

So, does Virginia tend to be more acidic because of the flue cure, and burley stays neutral to alkaline because of sun or air curing? I've read that the differences in PH between the different leaves is almost moot, because the PH is almost imperceptible to tests. Also, Cigarettes are mainly Virginia based in North America. Marlboro is all red Virginias, as so are most of the full strength blends. Therefore to make the reds they leaves are fermented, meaning there should be no natural ammonia left after the six week long heat fermentation.
Most of the literature online concerning cigarettes were merely bunk. I read through them a year or so ago in a debate with someone who kept throwing them out there. I don't know what the documents were posted for, or meant to be used for, but they referred to no known used processes in the tobacco world. They seemed mostly hypothetical. I don't know your sources, and I am not say that you have found these same sources, but just saying that you have to be careful with what you read online.

 

[deathmetal]

sour vinegar gas

Taco Bell, is that you?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

More like ketchup. When I first smelled it, I thought that I had unlocked the secret to McClellands Virginias, and was ecstatic, but it dissipated quickly. I think that Woods was correct when he suggested that they may use Calcium Propionate, so I may try that this year.

 

[deathmetal]

I love the smell of those McVirginias. Tasty.

 

[brightleaf]

I am not very well versed in the chemistry of the different curing processes. I do know that Virginia naturally has a lot of sugars (after the cure) that get reduced in the aging process. What causes a final pH before amelioration I don't know. The fermentation process in Virginias will produce acids which would probably be responsible for the lower pH, ketchup smell and tangy taste. Amelioration that adjusts pH (higher or lower) is usually used to change a substandard tobacco product into something better. Ammonia would evaporate fairly quickly and if used as ammonia it would have to react and bind with the sugars in the casing process. I think ammonia is usually applied in a more stable form such as urea or Diammonium Phosphate. I don't think it is applied to Virginia, but is more likely applied to Burley when they add the sugar. Amelioration is something I left out of the Secret Sauce thread because it is a large subject and varies widely. I don't have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the documents I link to. I try to get good sources. From what I've read about cigarettes is that most are a mix of Virginia, Burley, and reconstituted tobacco products.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I am not very well versed in the chemistry of the different curing processes

Me neither. And, unfortunately it's hard to find layman speak on the subject. I bought several books for tobacco farmers that included all of these charts and chemistry formulas... and it has been soooooo long since I've had chemistry. They are sort of useless to me. There is a forum for growers, but when I try to duplicate what they do with old refrigerators and boxes, I just don't get anything I like. So, it makes me question a lot of that forum.
We need to get fellow hobbyist that grow to talk honestly and exchange information.
But to Davek, I think the fermentation is the key to cigar leaf. There are some youtubers that I trust that show their methods, and I am interested in why cigars can deliver the nicotine so well without any bite also.

 

[brightleaf]

I do have a basic understanding of chemistry, organic chemistry and biochemistry. I understand what I read in these documents but have not read much about Burley, Cigar leaf or Dark Kentucky. I have only looked briefly at Virginia curing, and an even a smaller amount for Oriental. The curing process seems to have changed over the last hundred years as well, the science changes with each process.

 

[brightleaf]

The Tobacco Truth documents contain a lot of research, patents and experiments. Many of the processes they test do not find their way into production, and many more are not used by more than one company. As a hobby producer there is a wealth of information that can be adapted for home use, without having to spend millions on R&D. You just have to sift through the thousands of pages.

 

[briarbuck]

Often, Cuban cigars (and some Nicaraguan) have a distinct "horsey" or a hay + barn like smell to their tobaccos. I often have associated ammonia with a barn and wonder if I am picking up something tied to the high PH.
It is very interesting learning about the technical aspects of the different delivery systems. I had no idea that the varied PH was intended in order to deliver the desired effect.

 

[rajangan]

I get the hiccups when I smoke tobacco high in nicotine. I never really noticed it until I started growing my own. Un-aged tobacco is particularly high in nicotine.

 

[davek]

Definitely a complicated subject and, yes, all that literature relates to cigarettes. The first, possibly incorrect, assumption is equating harshness spoken of with tongue bite. The high PH delivering a lot of free base nicotine causing harshness. So, you're not sure if it relates, but anecdotal evidence and personal experience shows that the addition of sugars to Burley (along with toasting) can reduce tongue bite. The difference is dramatic. I'm willing to bet that adding an acid works as well.
My first quandary is to wonder why cigar leaf is high PH and almost bite free. I am suspecting that Cosmic is right in fermentation being the difference.

WHAT AMMONIA DOES

AMMONIA IN TOBACCO REACTS WITH REDUCING SUGARS TO FORM NONVOLATILE FLAVOR PRECURSORS. THE FLAVORS ARE PRODUCED DURING SMOKING. THE DEGREE AND TYPE OF FLAVOR CHANGE IMPARTED BY AMMONIA/SUGAR PRODUCTS DEPENDS TO A LARGE DEGREE ON HOW STRONGLY THE AMMONIA AND SUGAR ARE FORCED TOGETHER. THERE IS A COMPLEX SEQUENCE OF REACTIONS THAT OCCUR, AND THE CLOSER ONE GETS TO THE ENDPOINT BEFORE MAKING CIGARETTES, THE BETTER THE TASTE (IN GENERAL)* THE DETAILED

CHEMISTRY IS LITTLE UNDERSTOOD, BUT IS SIMILAR TO THAT INVOLVED IN PRODUCTION OF AMMONIA CARAMELS.
CIGARETTE SMOKE AMMONIA IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. IT EFFECTIVELY SCAVENGES THOSE SMOKE COMPOUNDS THAT LEAD TO HARSHNESS. IT CAN LIBERATE FREE NICOTINE FROM THE BLEND, WHICH IS ASSOCIATED WITH INCREASES IN IMPACT AND "SATISFACTION" REPORTED BY SMOKERS.

So maybe ammonia and sugars somehow reacting during fermentation to accomplish a reaction "closer to the endpoint”????? Thinking that he "chemistry is little understood" being the pertinent quote here.
This literature is giving me stuff to try anyway. Hearing what others have done will prolly be most important.

 

[brightleaf]

Have you looked into the effects of cocoa and licorice adding during casing? They looked to be important in reducing harshness from what I have read.

 

[deathmetal]

Those seem to be common casings, so there must be some utility in it.
Just taking notes so that I can extract as much Nicotine as possible from tobacco.
Anything under medium-to-strong is like lo-fat sour cream.

 

[brightleaf]

Are you trying to extract nicotine or enhance the effects of the nicotine in your blends? I suppose if you extracted nicotine you could add it to a blend. High nic blends would probably be the most healthy as you would smoke less. Smoking a longer lasting more flavorful pipe is enjoyable for me. I have been enjoying the pipe more and more for the pleasure of smoking a good tasting blend. The stress reducing, relaxing effects of smoking are a real benefit. The high nic effect of inhaling is something I am trying to reduce to once a day. I may be out of the habit before too long.

 

[deathmetal]

I was thinking more of enhancing the Nicotine in a blend by changing the pH of the leaf or otherwise processing it so that more Nicotine could be absorbed. I guess one could extract a bunch of Nicotine into alcohol and soak the blend in that. That's an interesting idea.
For me, the pipe is holistic: ritual, effect, flavor, and process. I would not want to leave out any part, which is probably why electronic smoking devices are not for me. I also like to have something to fiddle with while the world is screwing up around me