Nicotine Absorption-NOT Leaf Content- of Pipes Vs. Cigars

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

New Accessories
3 Fresh J. Alan Pipes
2 Fresh Ken Dederichs Pipes
6 Fresh Ashton Pipes
New Cigars

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Status
Not open for further replies.

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
I start smoking cigars in spring of '13 after dabbling in home grown tobacco for a while. I grew a variety of Virginia bright in poor soil, and could inhale deeply with no discomfort and no noticeable nicotine buzz (even as a never smoker prior to that). I did get cigar sickness a time or two, but learned quickly. I enjoyed cigars a lot, and always aspired to pick up a pipe someday (I am a big Tolkien reader, so naturally).
Last fall I started smoking a cob with Amphora or SWR here or there. But over the winter I had been gifted some MacB no.1 (Doesn't bite me, for whatever it's worth), Stokkebye lux bullseye flake and some proper English. I enjoyed them all immensely, but the problem for me was that I noticed a very different physiological response to smoking pipes than cigars. Even when I would smoke a half or a third of a bowl in a Kaywoodie (small pipe) of MacB No.1 I would stand up, have the head woosh feeling, and could not walk straight. I could routinely smoke a toro in my cigar days, even without a very full stomach, and not feel much of anything at all.
I was concerned because if that meant large amounts of nicotine, than physiological dependence could be around the corner. I took two weeks off, with the intent of starting back up with a cigar. I smoked half a cigar yesterday on an empty stomach, after NO nicotine for two weeks, and didn't feel nary a thing. My heart rate actually went *down* afterwards. All this was very curious to me, and I can't quite wrap my head around it. I want to know if anyone has any similar experiences with cigars as compared to pipes. (By the way, I don't inhale cigars or pipes, and I don't snork)
Here's an interesting study on cotinine (metabolized nicotine) levels in pipe, cigar, and cigarette smokers. This backed up my personal experience of getting a strong response from the pipe, and not much at all from cigars. Of course, it's hard to draw much from it since there is only the abstract and we don't know if inhalation is accounted for in the pipe smokers or not.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6116905

 

admin

Smoking a Pipe Right Now
Staff member
Nov 16, 2008
8,862
5,573
St. Petersburg, FL
pipesmagazine.com
Thanks for the post and interesting discussion topic.
There are about 8-zillion variables here.
There are so many different types of tobacco varietals, different blend recipes, different curing and processing methods.
No offense, but a blanket statement could never be made that cigars are stronger than pipe tobacco, or vice versa.
Which exact cigar and which exact pipe tobacco blend?
Then, were they aged for a long time, or not?
Also, what was your body-chemistry make-up at the time?
Did you have an empty stomach? Did you eat? What did you eat? What time of day was it?
How hard and fast, or slow were you smoking?

 

latbomber

Part of the Furniture Now
May 10, 2013
570
4
When you remove leaf content the only real difference in my opinion is that a cigar leaf touches your lips, which absorbs a bit of nicotine.
Overall as a cigar smoker before I started piping, I'd say that most cigars smoked for an hour have a much bigger nic hit than almost all pipe tobaccos smoked for an hour.

 

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
Thanks for the responses.
Kevin, I should specify my objective isn't to figure out, in an absolute sense, any difference between pipes and cigars. All the absolute stuff says that I shouldn't feel a big difference between the two though, which I do, so I wanted to start some non absolute dialogue with folks here who might have noticed similar peculiarities.
I smoked a variety of cigars, some from online retailers and local smoke shops including Macanudo, Upmann, La Gloria Cubana, and plenty of economy combo filler Dominicans. I smoked cigars every day for weeks at a time, and stopped when I got sick of them. So I smoked cigars with coffee, tea, smoked after meals, smoked first thing in the morning with no food or caffeine, etc. Lots of different situations. But when I average it all out, I have never felt the kind of buzz that I feel with a pipe smoking any cigar. And I've smoked cigarettes as well here and there as well.
This whole topic wasn't something I was at all concerned with before I picked up the pipe regularly. I remember after smoking some Stokkebye bullseye flake (A VaPer with Cav in the center, if anyone was wondering)-- and just a small bit mind you, knowing full well that perique could knock me on my arse-- that I felt quite effected from something, the nicotine seemed most likely at the time. So I tried some Stokkebye Proper English, which I figured as an English with a fair bit of Oriental and Latakia would be light on the N. That hit me the same way.
I started looking into things like buccal PH, trying to figure out if I could just drink something slightly acidic to reduce the N absorption orally (since I don't inhale). But that's presuming that it is in fact vitamin N that is causing the different feelings than I get from cigars and even cigarettes. So it's either absorption (which, as Kevin pointed out, is contingent upon a million factors), or some other factor like Carbon Monoxide and Nitric Oxide causing the extreme sleepiness and lethargy, not being able to walk straight, etc.

 

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
LatBomber, that's what I always thought, that there wasn't much difference between the two. But then I started noticing that even when I could smoke a toro for 45 minutes or an hour and not get the same effect as I would smoking a half bowl of English in a small pipe (like a twenty minute smoke). Then I ran across that Cotinine study where pipe smokers had just shy of 3 times the metabolized serum nicotine and I started to get curious.

 
To summarize a few discussions that we've had on here concerning N content to absorption, we hypothesized that PH was as much configured into absorption as content of the leaf as content. Burleys are noted as having a higher N content, but blends heavy in burley don't tend to deliver the punch. While Virginia has lower content of N, but has a lower PH making it more absorbent. Of course this is using the generalizations that we in the pipe world classify tobacco. In the farmer's world of tobacco, its not as easy as Virginia Verses Burley, and with hybridization, the categories get fuzzier. Idealy, the strongest pipe tobacco is a mix of Virginian and burley, VA giving a lower PH and the burley boosting the N content. Example, Old Dark Fired, Petersons Irish Flake, GH&C Dark Flakes...
But, for the most part - Virginias have less nicotine but more sugar and lower PH, which makes the lower content moot, because it is more absorbent, delivering more punch... sometimes.
Burleys have more nicotine, but less sugar and higher PH, making it less absorbent. However, it is better for inhaling, as the nicotine levels are better absorbed in the lungs than in the small tissue of the mouth and sinuses because of the base PH levels.
Now, all of that said, I find it very hard to believe that Virginia #1 made you light headed, but yet a cigar (any cigar?) didn't. As Kevin said, lots of variables. However, I am always left feeling unquenched for nicotine after smoking Va #1. However, if I smoked a cigar, any cigar, I would be throwing my guts up, lol.

 

latbomber

Part of the Furniture Now
May 10, 2013
570
4
What gets really confusing is when you smoke a lot of a blend like billy budd (which I do) which has cigar leaf in it! That's like dividing by zero, crossing the streams, and creating a time paradox all in one! 8O

 

flakyjakey

Lifer
Aug 21, 2013
1,117
10
This is an interesting question, but as Kevin has pointed out there are so many variables as to preclude even a pseudo-scientific answer.
So I will give you a completely subjective anecdotal response. I smoked cigars in the 1980s. I did not inhale but with some cigars I well recognise the nicotine-provoked symptoms you describe (smile). These gradually wore off.
When I started on the pipe (again never inhaling), I noticed these symptoms with certain tobaccos. Now, fifteen years later if I am offered a good cigar I will smoke it, but in comparison I find them insipid. These days, even if I am careful, brown ropes and GH&Co Dark Flake will give me an uncomfortable buzz. Sometimes I look for it!
Am I addicted? Probably not - If I go to the States for a five-day meeting I don't take my pipe. I look forward to re-acquainting with considerable relish, but no more.
My advice is to stick with the pipe. Do NOT inhale, learn to sip gently and try different blends that give you satisfaction without needing to head for the vomitorium!!!!

 

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
Are we talking about absorption via lungs or oral absorption regarding Virginia and PH? It was my understanding that acidic smoke was absorbed readily with inhalation but was not so in way of oral absorption. This link should take you to page 102 of this text
http://books.google.com/books?id=XQA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=pipe+smoking+buccal+ph&source=bl&ots=mdPdijeG-d&sig=cEYggQgPTI3ziIwdO-VrpwBiU40&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k7MgU6SuA4_IkAfRkYDQBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pipe%20smoking%20buccal%20ph&f=false
I've smoked some different roll your own cigarette tobaccos in Canada (mostly Virginia), Camels, American Spirit from the pack, and American Spirit from the pouch all without inhaling, some with filters and some without, and I can say even smoking several in a sitting I didn't notice much N from it. I think I smoked 5 filtered Camel wides in a row on an empty stomach sans inhalation and didn't felt anything that I can recall.
That same text says that cigars and pipes generally yield a more alkaline smoke than cigarettes, which is absorbed better (according to them) than acidic smoke through the oral tissues. I think in that vein, that changing oral PH towards acidic *ought* to lower oral nicotine absorption. It did help to drink Tea or soda when I would smoke my half bowl before I set the pipe down for a few weeks. These E-cigarette folks seemed to think it had something to do with it;
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/75818-nicotine-absorption-whats-your-cup.html

 
I hope this isn't too far off topic, but I am always surprised at the amount of people who can switch between cigars and pipes. Cigars always seem so harsh to me burning every bit of my mouth for the entirety of the smoke. I am sure that I could adjust to it, but if I did, I'd worry that my taste for the pipe would change. I can't imagine getting to the point where a cigar tasted good and quenched the need for nicotine, and ever going back to the pipe for any sort of satisfaction. Just standing next to someone smoking a cigar triggers my gag reflex and makes my eyes hurt.

 
In response to aguineapig and cigarettes, what we (in the pipe world) call Virginias verses Burleys, does not exist in the same way to the farmers. You've said that you've grown tobacco. Notice that there are very few varieties called Virginias and several called burleys which are actually sweet Virginias. I grew up setting tobacco plants out, topping, picking, curring... And, it wasn't until I started smoking a pipe that I ever had heard of this VA/burley differential. I have no idea exactly what it means when Canada says it only uses Virginias in their cigarettes. Not all Virginias fit exactly as we categorize them, and burleys are mostly hybrids of some sort, so they can range in sweetness also. Look at the hundreds of varieties of seeds available. And, they don't fit nicely into VA/burley categories.
And, I don't know if there is a single person in the universe who could tell you what exactly is in a cigarette.

 

flakyjakey

Lifer
Aug 21, 2013
1,117
10
Guineapig, I tire of this - the bottom line is you should not be, and there is no need to be, deliberately inhaling ANYTHING!!

 

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
No problem with me Cosmic-- I understand cigars aren't for everyone. Or many people at all for that matter. And I can certainly understand why some people cannot *stand* cigar smoke. If I try to light a stogie when I'm not in the right headspace, yes gagging will probably occur, coughing, eyes stinging, etc.
I'm no farmer, so I won't go there. I was just referencing that because cigarettes are typically(?) acidic, whereas pipe and cigar smoke is alkaline. At least is what I've read, I could be very mistaken there (correct me please). No doubt about knowing what is in "nails" to boot-- only brought that up in context with the PH facet of this discussion.
Flaky, not sure where you got that from-- I don't inhale anything, cigarettes, pipes or cigars. If this thread is too obsessive for you, you don't have to continue to read it. Thank you for your first post though, I found it helpful.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Heart rate slowing -- just hung up on that one part. Wasn't your main point, I know.
But I thought that's exactly what nicotine was supposed to do? I mean, they don't like women who are pregnant to smoke because it dang near stops the baby's heart completely. Or is that just some old propaganda I've been brainwashed by all these years.
Shoot. Now I got to go look *that* up.
I know when I get my first hit of one of my strong nic blends, I need to sit for a minute. It's that first big billow of getting it started up that washes over me and.... pretty sure it's like throwing a boat anchor over the side.

 
When it comes to cigarettes, as a kid my school took us on a tour of a Phillip Morris facility. And, after watching hundreds of gallons of chemicals and fillers being processed into the tobacco to make it smokable, I would have to say that cigarettes are beyond my comprehension. It may very well be that acidity it a characterization of all cigarettes. Maybe PH level is how the Ag product of tobacco is classified after the initial cure. I'm not sure. However, I would love to know more about the stages between harvest and delivery to the stores.

 

aguineapig

Starting to Get Obsessed
Mar 12, 2014
140
774
12pups-- I think Nicotine, as a stimulant, is supposed to increase heart rate. A google search seems to suggest that, but on the other hand, google searches on smoking related subject are often not reliable. I would wager that nicotine *should* raise heart rate though. I'm not positive, but I was always under that impression.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.