Need Advice: Book About Moby-Dick - "Read it if You Can"

[Yadkin1765]

I have read Moby Dick at least three times. It is one of those works that needs to be dusted off periodically. There are so many layers to the book, it becomes difficult to keep track of everything Melville is trying to convey. The saddest chapter is near the end when Ahab reflects on the years spent away from his wife and child, a realization of the cost of his obsession.

Anyway, maybe you should consider self-publishing. Maybe the act of getting it “out there”, regardless of the size of your audience will provide a level of gratification. I have written two novels and am working on a third. I find the exercise cathartic.
By the way, there is actually a Moby Dick page on Facebook.

So where can one get your book?

There is a lot of underlying torment in the book, I'd argue due to the great self-sacrifice required to write for a living and the fact that Melville's career was failing due to being misunderstood. The poignant, meditate moments in the novel are among the most potent in all works of literature.

I do think there is something to your idea of self-gratification through self-publishing.

Not really a big fan of the power structures underlying Facebook, so I haven't played in that forum in over a decade. May try Goodreads, but I forget if they are owned by Meta or not.

Well, if and when I get it published, I'll be sure to let you know. Perhaps you could be a guinea pig beta reader. In the meantime, if you've any interest in my "grand unification theory" of the novel, I'd be more than happy to converse on it.

Perhaps we can organize a party to talk about it.

 

[Yadkin1765]

I have a number of theses in my book collection of an author whose work I collect in-depth, including his own, and ones written about his work.

What author is that? if you don't mind me asking. I have a little library of my own, been thinking about posting about it and some of the little gems.

 

[Zack Miller]

Well this thread has generated a lot of text, comments, and suggestions, but we still have no clue about your epiphany concerning The Great Cetacean.

 

[rmbittner]

Honestly, any thought or suggestion will be well received and considered. I may not get to all responses (if there are any), and I may delay reply (forgive me ahead of time), as I tend to brood over things or be absent for brief stints, but rest assured, any thought beyond trolling will be thankfully received.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Should I post this thread? The rye aqua vitae says "yes."

[deep breath] Okay. The following is coming from a person who majored in comparative literature in college (which included reading Moby Dick), worked for 17 years in book publishing, and has been a full-time freelance nonfiction writer since 2000, traditionally publishing 7 books and hundreds of magazine articles.

If you want to traditionally publish this book, you need to educate yourself about how publishing works. Nonfiction books are sold on the basis of a book proposal, not a complete manuscript. That way, the publisher can help you to shape the content to their specific markets as well as guide the logical development of your ideas. If greeted with a complete manuscript, chances are they’ll pass without even looking at it. So the fact that you’ve already finished the book is actually a drawback, not a plus.

Second: You make statements above that would raise immediate red flags for any book editor. This sentence, in particular, would have me issuing a quick rejection: “I … [have] completed what I feel confident is an amazing book that (frankly) rewrites the history of American Letters and presents a new mode of logical analogy (applicable to metaphysics and computation logic), but I live in a time when, instead of seeking truth, people are obsessed with so-called personal truths and identity politics.“ This makes you sound as if you have an exaggerated sense of your writing, your ideas, and your potential influence—yet you don’t mention a single authoritative credential to back this up. In other words: If you really want to publish this work traditionally, you need bona fides: previous experience publishing on literary subjects, experience teaching literature at an accredited university, a Ph.D that focused on Melville/Moby Dick, and so on. Do you have any of those? If so, you will need to present yourself within that context; it doesn’t matter to an editor how much you like your book.

I would suggest not spending any more time trying to attract an agent. Assuming that this manuscript is actually publishable—grammatical, logically developed, amply supported by research, with a definable market—it is still targeted at such a limited readership as to have negligible sales. That means it may or may not break even. No agent is going to be interested in a project that has such limited earning potential for them. (It will also be the very rare agent who actually has relationships with editors who would be interested in such a book.)

Instead, I’d recommend focusing on academic/university presses. They would be more likely to consider a completed manuscript, their salespeople would know how to sell such specialized literary criticism, and it would likely fit well within their current list. But they’ll still want to know that you have enough contacts/influence among the potential readership to make publishing at least potentially profitable.

Or: Rewrite it as a novel.

Bob

 

[mikethompson]

I've read Moby Dick, and while not my favorite book I did enjoy parts of it. The way he described the characters in the book i remember most, and Ahab driving the crew to capture the whale was interesting.

But Dune it is not.

 

[sablebrush52]

This post maybe a bit hastily written, however long it turns out, as I've had a wee bit to drink, and am temporarily approaching my wit's end, so to speak.

I've written a book. I'd like to think it's an important book. I've dedicated a literal score of years to researching for it, the last six years spent forging it in the fiery womb of creativity.

It is born.

The book concerns one of the most read and scrutinized books in the English language: Moby-Dick. It is not really an academic work at all but more of a puzzle solution. Think: Di Vinci Code without all the numerology, esoterica, and speculative sciences, but keep all the puzzles and riddles.

Now, my book (and I) purport to do one thing which has never been done before--that is, reveal THE secret meaning pervading the entire novel. I recognize this claim bares innate aires of insanity, but bare with me.

For those of you that have actually read the novel, you know that the book is a curious construction singular among all works of literature. There is something going on with Melville, and it is either A) he is a little off his rocker, or B) he was up to something. It is probably both, but I choose B with reason. That reason being: he's a pipe smoker; crazy though he may have been, he was saner than the common rabble.

My very first reading of the novel, back in a senior seminar in 2002, revealed to me the faint vestiges of the reading which was to become the book I've written and, frankly, a life obsession (let me qualify this with: Moby-Dick is not my favorite book. I just long to have someone to talk with about what I have witnessed).

In the a handful of years following my initial reading, I both reread the novel countless times (probably some 50-100 times to date) and earned my Masters in literature. I did not pursue a PhD. because, well, frankly, F the politics, hoops, and agenda of higher academia today (I have my reasons--namely, that intellectual merit should speak for itself, not bureaucratic game playing).

Upon completing my masters, my thoughts turned to production in my area of expertise, but I had come to learn that it is not well accepted to claim discovery or higher knowledge amongst a gaggle of senior experts (not necessarily experts in H. Melville). So it was that the monkey firmly latched on to my back for the long haul.

Taking cue from conversations with professors in the field who never ever, EVER probed and always, ALWAYS stonewalled with uninformed skepticism, I put the project on the mental back burner with one specific aim, to rule out my own confirmation bias. I wanted to prove to myself I wasn't seeing what I wanted to see. That is to say, I wanted to see if the spell would wear off.

So, I waited ~6 years, every now and then (not obsessively) off and on perusing journals and publications to make sure no-one else had made the same discovery. When I finally picked up Moby-Dick again, I was more mature, more educated, more reasonable, more skeptical, wiser, smarter, &etc... But alas, the hidden image was still there, and whatismore, it was more clear than ever. Furthermore, quite literally everything now fell into place--absolutely every thing made sense because, well, I was smarter and wiser and more skeptical.

Now follow me on this: either, I am crazy (a la A Beautiful Mind), which is entirely possible; or, I am on to something. Let me spoil it for you, it is the latter. This is quite literally the only theory that explains every word and curious decision Melville made for his book. Otherwise, as Melville experts often argue, the book is regularly said to be flawed or ill conceived (possibly written and rewritten multiple times). This is not true at all. In fact the reading I put forward discovers a unifying impulse behind every word, from the dual titles to the two prefaces, all the way through the so-called encyclopedic elements to the "Epilogue." It explains everything, and oftentimes provides irrefutable and stunning quantitative evidence.

Fast-forward to now: here I am, today, having completed what I feel confident is an amazing book that (frankly) rewrites the history of American Letters and presents a new mode of logical analogy (applicable to metaphysics and computation logic), but I live in a time when, instead of seeking truth, people are obsessed with so-called personal truths and identity politics. I, myself am apolitical. But, this is a post-truth world, folks. And the humanities are rife with it. To even utter the word "truth" is to brand yourself with a scarlet A upon your chest. Today, Melville has been co-opted as a vehicle of ideology and identity--as people never really understood what he was doing in the first place, they've found reflections of themselves in his words. His works have become sorts of horoscopes--revealing the individuals' egos to themselves.

Now, I do not want to spend the time arguing or proving my reading, as I have written a book about it, and if you want to challenge or test my position, then you should just read my book (and Moby-Dick). Still, I am more than willing to share aspects of the reading with the curious. But what I am really here for is advice.

These twenty years, I have sought mentorship to no avail. One mention of the subject, and doors are shut. No probing is done. I have literally waited a month to have a phone conversation only to sit on the phone for thirty minutes listening to a so-called expert regurgitate bibliographical material (most of which I knew) after my being asked only one single question that the listener himself wasn't properly primed to hear the answer to. This, I believe, is because no one believes it is possible that a book a hundred million people have read could be hiding anything at all. But I ask you this, did not hundreds of millions look upon the sun and planets and miss the nature of their orbits? or the nature of lightning? or the capacity of salt to create batteries? or the potential of metallic ores? or see a microscopic world of cells, bacteria and viruses but think it all only blobs? This is another case of something simply being missed. At the very least, it deserves fair consideration.

I have had, to date, one reader, to whom I had no prior relation, whose response was a resounding "Holy Wow!" He is Oxford trained in literature to boot--but is long retired. He published before the internet era, and long ago moved into administration (becoming department chair then school dean then VP of a small university). His connections are old and spread thin.

I have sought publication via agents or traditional publishing houses for much of last year. I know it can take a long time with many rejections to be expected even in the best of cases. But I just wanted to throw this out there in this forum in particular because it represents a more intimate and cohesive population than any other forum--none of which I belong to. And, because you guys seem cool enough--like I'd like to sit on a porch and smoke a pipe with just chatting about this crazy thing called being.

I do tend towards the solitary life, though I am well socialized and sociable when called upon to be. Honestly, I post this in hopes that others might have some advice or recommendations moving forward. As you can imagine, one (such as myself) that might be concerned with such seeming trifles for a full score of years would undoubtedly not tend towards modern superficial modes of socialization--being fully literate and all. Thank heavens for pipesmag.

Honestly, any thought or suggestion will be well received and considered. I may not get to all responses (if there are any), and I may delay reply (forgive me ahead of time), as I tend to brood over things or be absent for brief stints, but rest assured, any thought beyond trolling will be thankfully received.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Should I post this thread? The rye aqua vitae says "yes."

So this is sort of The Moby Dick Code as opposed to The Da Vinci Code.

I read Moby Dick decades ago. I went through a phase of reading early 19th century American authors, and Melville was in the pile. There was something about the language of that far away time that I enjoyed.

Times have changed, alas, not for the better, and I could no more read Moby Dick today than I could this very long post. You lost me at "hastily written while looped". Could be a good title, though.

Best of luck with your endeavors.

 

[Zack Miller]

Actually, I’m more of a Hawthorne fan.

 

[litup]

It is one of the first novels ever written that wasn't just a story. As a matter of fact, there is not much of a story there at all.

When I read "it is one of the first novels ever written that wasn't just a story" I immediately bristled at the suggestion. This strikes me as hyperbole. But I could be missing your point. Surely you don't mean to suggest (as I am interpreting it) that Moby Dick was one of the first novels to employ allegory, or symbolism, or metaphor or whatever it is that makes it not just a story? Can you explain what you meant by this?

 

[mso489]

The original post reads a little like the beginning of a long novel in itself. Two points to ponder. When I first read the book for a college course, I found it a tome, deep in religious and epic meaning. Later, when I read it in middle age, I rediscovered it and was amazed at how humorous it is, and intentionally so, on Melville's part.

One missing piece for the modern reader is that, when it was written, whaling was a huge profitable industry, and the book revealed its inner workings and abuse of its workforce as never before, a bit like a massive expose on the petroleum industry today, which is also transfixed by oil -- from the ground rather than from marine mammals.

An expansive book about an expansive book may have a hard time finding an audience, or a publisher. But you could go the self-published print-on-demand route. Meantime, I'd say, move on with your writing. Melville's masterpiece seems to be your white whale.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

What author is that? if you don't mind me asking. I have a little library of my own, been thinking about posting about it and some of the little gems.

Here is an interview I did several years ago about a book I designed that showcases my collection of the aforementioned author.

 

[AJL67]

[deep breath] Okay. The following is coming from a person who majored in comparative literature in college (which included reading Moby Dick), worked for 17 years in book publishing, and has been a full-time freelance nonfiction writer since 2000, traditionally publishing 7 books and hundreds of magazine articles.

If you want to traditionally publish this book, you need to educate yourself about how publishing works. Nonfiction books are sold on the basis of a book proposal, not a complete manuscript. That way, the publisher can help you to shape the content to their specific markets as well as guide the logical development of your ideas. If greeted with a complete manuscript, chances are they’ll pass without even looking at it. So the fact that you’ve already finished the book is actually a drawback, not a plus.

Second: You make statements above that would raise immediate red flags for any book editor. This sentence, in particular, would have me issuing a quick rejection: “I … [have] completed what I feel confident is an amazing book that (frankly) rewrites the history of American Letters and presents a new mode of logical analogy (applicable to metaphysics and computation logic), but I live in a time when, instead of seeking truth, people are obsessed with so-called personal truths and identity politics.“ This makes you sound as if you have an exaggerated sense of your writing, your ideas, and your potential influence—yet you don’t mention a single authoritative credential to back this up. In other words: If you really want to publish this work traditionally, you need bona fides: previous experience publishing on literary subjects, experience teaching literature at an accredited university, a Ph.D that focused on Melville/Moby Dick, and so on. Do you have any of those? If so, you will need to present yourself within that context; it doesn’t matter to an editor how much you like your book.

I would suggest not spending any more time trying to attract an agent. Assuming that this manuscript is actually publishable—grammatical, logically developed, amply supported by research, with a definable market—it is still targeted at such a limited readership as to have negligible sales. That means it may or may not break even. No agent is going to be interested in a project that has such limited earning potential for them. (It will also be the very rare agent who actually has relationships with editors who would be interested in such a book.)

Instead, I’d recommend focusing on academic/university presses. They would be more likely to consider a completed manuscript, their salespeople would know how to sell such specialized literary criticism, and it would likely fit well within their current list. But they’ll still want to know that you have enough contacts/influence among the potential readership to make publishing at least potentially profitable.

Or: Rewrite it as a novel.

Bob

Eh whadda you know. Pffffth

 

[mortonbriar]

If you do decide to self publish, at least pay for a professional editor. One thing this world does not need is yet another self published book edited by a family member/friend.

 

[Yadkin1765]

[deep breath] Okay. The following is coming from a person who majored in comparative literature in college (which included reading Moby Dick), worked for 17 years in book publishing, and has been a full-time freelance nonfiction writer since 2000, traditionally publishing 7 books and hundreds of magazine articles.

If you want to traditionally publish this book, you need to educate yourself about how publishing works. Nonfiction books are sold on the basis of a book proposal, not a complete manuscript. That way, the publisher can help you to shape the content to their specific markets as well as guide the logical development of your ideas. If greeted with a complete manuscript, chances are they’ll pass without even looking at it. So the fact that you’ve already finished the book is actually a drawback, not a plus.

Second: You make statements above that would raise immediate red flags for any book editor. This sentence, in particular, would have me issuing a quick rejection: “I … [have] completed what I feel confident is an amazing book that (frankly) rewrites the history of American Letters and presents a new mode of logical analogy (applicable to metaphysics and computation logic), but I live in a time when, instead of seeking truth, people are obsessed with so-called personal truths and identity politics.“ This makes you sound as if you have an exaggerated sense of your writing, your ideas, and your potential influence—yet you don’t mention a single authoritative credential to back this up. In other words: If you really want to publish this work traditionally, you need bona fides: previous experience publishing on literary subjects, experience teaching literature at an accredited university, a Ph.D that focused on Melville/Moby Dick, and so on. Do you have any of those? If so, you will need to present yourself within that context; it doesn’t matter to an editor how much you like your book.

I would suggest not spending any more time trying to attract an agent. Assuming that this manuscript is actually publishable—grammatical, logically developed, amply supported by research, with a definable market—it is still targeted at such a limited readership as to have negligible sales. That means it may or may not break even. No agent is going to be interested in a project that has such limited earning potential for them. (It will also be the very rare agent who actually has relationships with editors who would be interested in such a book.)

Instead, I’d recommend focusing on academic/university presses. They would be more likely to consider a completed manuscript, their salespeople would know how to sell such specialized literary criticism, and it would likely fit well within their current list. But they’ll still want to know that you have enough contacts/influence among the potential readership to make publishing at least potentially profitable.

Or: Rewrite it as a novel.

Bob

This is great feedback.

I have long been digesting the fear surrounding much of what you've said. My beta reader (credentialed, mentioned previously) also suggested moving to seek a PhD as a viable route.

I've read a few books on nonfiction publishing, and recognize much of the advice, not to mention the need for a broad and deep social media reach. I would not bolster the quality of my work and my feedback not been so positive, but generally speaking, I wholeheartedly grasp how it comes across as overly confident. But, as you may well know, to assert a new truth in a sea of experts requires a certain bit of quirky confidence. I should tone it down, to be sure. That being said, the book is both awesome and fun, especially considering the typically dry material surrounding it.

I do have a few years lecturing at the collegiate level in both writing and a couple literature courses, so it is not alien to me.

Finally, I recognize the initial work will attract limited readership, though I do think there is a niche market hiding in academia and, as mentioned, sciences surrounding logical process including AGI and information theory. The goal has long been to also write a related novel of some form, perhaps geared towards a screen play, and a more concise guide book to how to digest and comprehend the image hiding in the work.

Academic/university presses are likely the best, if not only, avenue for reasons you state. I currently have a journal considering publishing an excerpt, but should probably adapt some aspect of the reading better suited to the broader academic base.

I suppose when my reader responded, I was swept away with his enthusiasm. For example, he wrote "Get thee to a publisher... Do not change a word," among other things. He was stunned, to say the least. Admittedly, he was of the old school when the hoops to publishing were not so pronounced as they are today.

Thank for your reply. You've guided my inertia.

 

[Yadkin1765]

Actually, I’m more of a Hawthorne fan.

Interestingly, the tricks Melville uses to hide his secret borrow heavily from perceived devices found by him in Hawthorne.

 

[Yadkin1765]

When I read "it is one of the first novels ever written that wasn't just a story" I immediately bristled at the suggestion. This strikes me as hyperbole. But I could be missing your point. Surely you don't mean to suggest (as I am interpreting it) that Moby Dick was one of the first novels to employ allegory, or symbolism, or metaphor or whatever it is that makes it not just a story? Can you explain what you meant by this?

Sure. Much of the novel concerns things outside of narrative movement or progression such as what seem to be convoluted encyclopedic entries or historical exposition. Often, the narrative scenes are provided as a generalized overview of the goings-on about the deck with no particular narrative aim, not progressing the novel one bit. Much of the repetitious sequences, such as lowering for whales or the gams (when ships meet) offer little more than snapshots of the events in a very passive way, bringing nothing obvious to the story of Ahab's quest at all. But Melville was such a master, these things come out in an entertaining way much as a nonfiction essays by an Emerson or Muir might.

As to your point about being first to employ allegory, symbolism, or metaphor--no, of course not, but what Melville did do was a first. He took the advances made in English Letters over the previous 250 years to the next level creating something wholly new which no one noticed (which is what my book discovers to the reader--and why its seems, to me at least, to be a big deal). Melville's employment of metaphor and symbolism gives a new dimension and depth of meaning to language which frankly has no equal I've found. His device seems to have both been born and died with him because no one noticed he was standing on the shoulders of Shakespeare, Donne, and Spencer and had carried the possibilities of language to their logical next step. Instead, following Melville (and maybe Hawthorne) language regressed to a simpler, less demanding form leading us into realism and ultimately settling in the beautiful declarative language of authors like Steinbeck and Hemingway.

 

[Zack Miller]

Interestingly, the tricks Melville uses to hide his secret borrow heavily from perceived devices found by him in Hawthorne.

Who was more tormented, Ahab or Dimmesdale?

 

[Yadkin1765]

So, as to what my work reveals: I'll try to explain it in brief. Understand however, that Melville himself knew it would be difficult to explain what he had done. In his famous review of Hawthorne, "Hawthorne and his Mosses" written during his composition of Moby-Dick, Melville writes:

"No man can read a fine author, and relish him to his very bones, while he reads, without subsequently fancying to himself some ideal image of the man and his mind. And if you rightly look for it, you will almost always find that the author himself has somewhere furnished you with his own picture. For poets (whether in prose or verse), being painters of Nature, are like their brethren of the pencil, the true portrait-painters, who, in the multitude of likenesses to be sketched, do not invariably omit their own; and in all high instances, they paint them without any vanity, though, at times, with a lurking something, that would take several pages to properly define."

This is Melville's admission of his secret.

First, he has hidden an image of himself in his work, a Jonah in The Whale, if you will, and without any vanity, that is to say, it isn't glaring or obvious.

The image he has hidden is of him writing the very book we read. In this way, it is both reflexive and recursive. A book about itself and its author writing that same book. This paradoxical möbius creates some curious metaphysical properties within the greater image. Even still, every word of the book is devoted to creating, revealing, and explaining this image. This is at what the preface "Etymologies" tries to point, the greater etymological game.

The hidden image reveals Melville in the act of writing, the movements of his writing hand, the creation of the lines, the pencil's location upon the page, the margins and the page turns themselves. He even marks intervals of writing, when he stops and starts, as well as when one mss (notebook) is filled and he moves on to another.

It also reveals his workspace: his desk, his mess, the objects in his immediate periphery when writing, his physical body above the desk down to his fingers, his process (including editing), the time of day, his thoughts and worries about writing, his obsession with it, and his stress regarding his failing career.

As a book about a book, he even includes commentary on publishing, international copyright law, famous books, critics, and readers. He often shares poignant laments surrounding the loss of his intended meaning once he's finished the book and it is left for the readers to make of it what they will.

Finally, and really, his coup de grace in his greater creation, is that he employs this hidden image of himself and the tension it creates with the surface narrative to create a third image which makes of him an unseen metaphysical omnipresent creator-god, the author-god writing the book. In this way, Melville creates an image of himself in relation to his narrative creation analogous to an omnipresent higher being who controls all actions in a narrative world. It is from this feature that all the book's philosophy, metaphysics, and religion come.

That is all.

 

[greysmoke]

I would have suggested Conrad's Heart of Darkness as better fodder for literary study. I mean 19,500 words vs. 206,052 words. But JMHO.

 

[AJL67]

I think you miss the point. What I have responded to is not criticism, but schoolyard hijinks. Sandbox rules: don't dish if you can't take.

Scenario: guy gets on friendly forum, post about the fruits of his labor, passion, interest. Is passively called without rationalization: pretentious, obsessive, (albeit tongue-in-cheek, ion not in bad taste) Stalinist, that his work is without merit because its just a story, etc...

These are not educated criticisms but uninformed, passive stone throwing. To what ends? Is it pleasant to the poster to degrade another? Now, if these were educated, logically presented, and clearly informed responses, then, well, whatever. But, they are not.

I'm not taking it personally so much as playing the ball as it lies. It is in no way cathartic. I was hoping for mature constructive engagement. Nothing good or fun to say, don't say it. But I will defend my position when advanced upon. In some strange way, it feel's like its my turf. And why not? Should I cower. Just eat it in silence.

Again, if ya can't take it, don't dish it. Perhaps, you've directed this post at the wrong culprit.

First time on the internet?

 

[alaskanpiper]

I like Moby Dick very much, and always thought of it as more of an examination of the impact and influence of the human propensity for obsession. To me it has always seemed to be grand, and honestly somewhat cynical and/or self-deprecating metaphor that is both and vitriolic indictment and a ringing endorsement of human passion for a specific goal and the effects it has on both the individual human that is it's victim/beneficiary as well as their immediate social and professional network.

I would certainly imagine that Melville's own experiences as a writer (and more importantly human) would weigh heavily into it's creation, but I have to believe his observation of and critique of others with similar afflictions would be woven into the framework as well.

In the end I think the message the book truly conveys is that there is no "good answer" and certainly no generally applicable advice, patterns, or experiences to be had when it comes to human obsession. Things happen, decisions get made, life takes the course it takes and the results can be glorious, tragic, both, or anywhere in between.

It would certainly be even more fascinating if there were, as you say, identifiable clues interspersed throughout the novel to highlight the personal specificity of such a topic, but I have nowhere the necessary knowledge of Melville or his predecessors/contemporaries to even speculate on such a thing, or likely even understand it.

What I do know, is that it is a great and powerful piece of work that has endured for a reason. The story in and of itself is more than good enough, but it certainly provides plenty of avenues for the more analytical/philosophical/imaginative reader to immerse themselves in thought processes that result in conclusions that run the gamut from "hoping against all hope" to "damn it all anyway."