Navy Flake and Fish Death

[loadclear]

I personally try not to violate the law. Salmon is a delicate resource, and way too many people clog up the Kenai to send fish to family outside. I'm NOT a fan of that.
I'm from Homer. One of the bains of our existance is Anchorage people coming down to the Kenai, dipping for more than they need, and shipping it outside, in violation of the intent of a Personal Use Fishery, and the law.
Why don't you stop dipping, since you don't need it for food throughout the year, and just hook and line fish for your family outside?
(for those other pipers wondering WTF is this about?... The Dipnetting fisheries in AK are intended for Alaskans to stock up the freezer for food. It is against AK law for AK residents to give dipnetted fish to non-residents. It's not to be a jerk, it's because the "method and means" of dipnetting is too easy to take too many fish. The quota is purely for food for residents, since there's not enough to go around.)

 

[alaskanpiper]

I personally try not to violate the law. Salmon is a delicate resource, and way too many people clog up the Kenai to send fish to family outside. I'm NOT a fan of that.
I'm from Homer. One of the bains of our existance is Anchorage people coming down to the Kenai, dipping for more than they need, and shipping it outside, in violation of the intent of a Personal Use Fishery, and the law.
Why don't you stop dipping, since you don't need it for food throughout the year, and just hook and line fish for your family outside?
(for those other pipers wondering WTF is this about?... The Dipnetting fisheries in AK are intended for Alaskans to stock up the freezer for food. It is against AK law for AK residents to give dipnetted fish to non-residents. It's not to be a jerk, it's because the "method and means" of dipnetting is too easy to take too many fish. The quota is purely for food for residents, since there's not enough to go around.)

I am aware of a regulation stating that the fish may not be bartered or sold, not one saying you cannot give it away to family, but if such a law exists, sure, I'll just give them my rod and reel fish. For all I know that is what we are giving them anyway, it all comes out of the same freezer. And we are talking about a couple of pounds here not boxes and boxes like you see non resident sportfisherman leave with. On the rare occasions that I do dipnet (maybe 5 times in my life) I only take what myself and my family need (Last weekend 3 of us caught 20 fish (split 3 ways for 7 fish each) and stopped.
I am not from Anchorage, in fact I'm from an area far less populated than Homer, but I do find it funny how alot people who are from smaller towns seem to think they are more entitled to the aforementioned "delicate resource" than people from larger towns. Especially those that moved to smaller towns from out of state. Pretty silly if you ask me. We are all Alaska residents.
If I were you I'd be much more concerned with the impact commercial fishing has on this delicate resource, particularly in the Kenai area, so people all over the world can plate Alaskan sockeye, or maybe the thousands and thousands of people from the lower 48 that come up here snagging fish with spinning rods like nobodies business and hauling them home to god knows where, leaving the river full of beer cans, carcasses, cigarette butts, and hundreds of miles on monofilament. Your neighbors from north of the peninsula, lifelong Alaskans giving a few fillets to family members should be the least of your concerns.
I am a fly fisherman, especially fond of trout fishing, so there are very few people more aware of how delicate this resource is and how easily it can be spoiled. That is why as I mentioned above, we take only what we need. If we give some to family and run out of fish before the next season begins, it's no big deal.
While agree that many people harvest well beyond what they should, and distribute fish in a way that is not the intent of a personal use permit, I am not one of them. In fact, I have advocated on many occasions that resident sport fisherman should have to count the fish they harvest on a rod and reel toward their personal use limits, since the personal use limits are outrageously high.
Thankfully, as of right now, the Sockeye runs on the Kenai are doing extremely well and have outrageously high escapement (nearly double for the first run fish). That is the only reason I chose to dipnet this year at all.

 

[loadclear]

Further explaination:
Salmon tend to run in large groups in shallow water on the edge of a river. During the high tide swing, they rush up the river, typically in the deepest part of the river, which at the mouth is usually 5-8 feet deep.
A dipnet, is a 5 foot diameter net, in which people either from the shore, or from a boat, hold the 5' net in the water where the salmon are rushing up the river. In a good run, a couple of dipnetters in a boat can catch upwards of 40 fish per high tide swing (sometimes many more). It doesn't take much imagination to see how a few hundred nets can really slay the run of fish coming up the river. The quota of fish allowed for dipnetting is determined by the household size of the fisherman.
If all Alaskans were allowed to take as many fish as they could, there wouldn't be enough salmon to get upriver, lay eggs, and make more salmon for the next year (actually 4-5 years later for each generation).
Alaska Department of Fish and Game set quotas and "openings" for how many fish can be taken in the river to allow maximum harvest, yet still keep the stocks healthy.
There simply aren't enough fish for everyone, so they give first preference to residents who have to make it through long winters, many times without work. (Most Alaska employment is summer work, requiring people to make and save a lot of money and supplies in the summer to last the winter).
Anchorage is another city like any other. The employment situation is typically year round there, and the residents of Anchorage usually don't have an economic crunch in the winter like the rest of the state.
As the most populated city in the state, it doesn't take too many Anchorage residents to overwhelm a small town in AK. Anchorage residents tend to come to the Kenai, dipnet a lot of fish, and send them to friends and family, more as sport, rather than food to live.
For every fish that someone sends to the lower 48, an Alaskan resident loses that fish to their freezer.
Edited to add: Yes, it is illegal to give away dipnetted fish to non-residents.

 

[loadclear]

alaskanpiper:
My argument is not necessarily for you, but I had to say something since you didn't know that it was illegal to give dipnetted fish away.
I can't necessarily agree with you about commercial fishing, since 1) they are highly requlated on their openings and quotas, and 2) those sold fish create jobs and feed families. I work in a tangental industry that thrives on the marine trades and services. Without those commercial fisherman, there would be no boat builders, net sellers, diesel mechanics, marine electricians, harbor crewmen, sales clerks who service all of the above, or even bankers who finance related busnesses. It is an economy in and of itself.

 

[alaskanpiper]

Edited to add: Yes, it is illegal to give away dipnetted fish to non-residents

I am not doubting you, but can you show me the ADFG regulation that states this? Regardless, visiting family will still go home with fish, but I too have a respect for the law, so I would like to keep them separated so they only go home with rod and reel fish if this is in fact true. I will admit, my knowledge of dipnetting regulation is not as sharp as it is for rod and reel, since as I mentioned above it is not something I do often.

Most Alaska employment is summer work

This is not true. Although there is much seasonal employment in Alaska, the vast majority of resident jobs are year round employment. Much of the seasonal jobs are actually filled by non-residents, including upwards of 70% of COMMERCIAL FISHING jobs.

Alaska Department of Fish and Game set quotas and "openings" for how many fish can be taken in the river to allow maximum harvest, yet still keep the stocks healthy.

Correct. As mentioned above, MAXIMUM not minimum, but maximum escapement was DOUBLED with the early run, and is hundreds of thousands ahead of pace for run number two, which is why I chose to dipnet this year. To be clear, the weir location is upriver, meaning all these fish are counted AFTER they pass through the gauntlet of dipnetters.

hey are highly requlated on there openings and quotas

So are sport fisherman. Our limits are much lower.

2) those sold fish create jobs and feed families.

So it is ok to harvest millions of sockeye to turn a profit for outsiders (see above) but not a few dozen to feed a resident family and their visiting guest who grew up here? Spoken like a true conservationist.......

 

[loadclear]

I am not doubting you, but can you show me the ADFG regulation that states this?

My google foo is weak at the moment for the actual law, but here's an exerpt from the ADFG Faq:
³ Fish can be shared ONLY with immediate family members (regardless of residency).
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static-sf/Region2/pdfpubs/dipnet%20101.pdf

This is not true. Although there is much seasonal employment in Alaska, the vast majority of resident jobs are year round employment. Much of the seasonal jobs are actually filled by non-residents, including upwards of 70% of COMMERCIAL FISHING jobs.

Speak for yourself. Non-res comm fish jobs are processors, "the slime line"- your numbers are derived from stats that include Catcher Processors from Seattle that fish for Pollock on the high seas, yet in the AK district. In my town, and most away from Anchorage, comm fish related jobs are skilled, and residents.
I ask you this? Does your income fluctuate between winter and summer by more than 20%? Mine does, and most of the people I know (residents in skilled trade jobs) do.

Correct. As mentioned above, MAXIMUM not minimum, but maximum escapement was DOUBLED with the early run, and is hundreds of thousands ahead of pace for run number two, which is why I chose to dipnet this year. To be clear, the weir location is upriver, meaning all these fish are counted AFTER they pass through the gauntlet of dipnetters

True, there's a lot of sockeyes this year... good for all!!! (as long as the rules are followed)

So are sport fisherman. Our limits are much lower

Not always, you'd be surprised. In 2004, I caught more reds dipnetting than my buddy did with his Cook Inlet Drift Permit. He was financially hurt badly.
I'm not an anti-Anchorage or anti-conservationist in the least. However I've been here long enough (40 years- my whole life except when I was outside for the military) and lived in enough places (Homer, Wasilla, Anchorage, Palmer, and Bethel) to see many sides of the same argument.
In the end, I side with the observations with my own eyes. Too many people are vying for the same limited resource. Comm Fishermen take fish, and make an economy out of it. Sportfishermen feed part time industries with guides from Oregon, and part time college kids. Personal Use Dipnet fishermen do it because it's fun, and feed the economy of gas stations and boat ramp operators.
Call me cynical, but that's the reality as I see it.

 

[alaskanpiper]

Fish can be shared ONLY with immediate family members (regardless of residency).

Good! As it should be! This also makes me well within the law! I thought this was the case, but just wanted to make sure with you :wink:

Speak for yourself. Non-res comm fish jobs are processors, "the slime line"- your numbers are derived from stats that include Catcher Processors from Seattle that fish for Pollock on the high seas, yet in the AK district. In my town, and most away from Anchorage, comm fish related jobs are skilled, and residents.

In the most recent published data from the Alaska Department of Labor and Workforce Development (2017), non-residents accounted for 61.8% of the gross earnings of commercial fishing permit holders and their crews (this does not include processing). When it comes to fish processing (that would be one of the "tangential" industries you were in support of before) non-residents make up 74.6% of the workforce. According to AEDC president and CEO Bill Popp's presentation I attended this afternoon, those numbers increased in 2018, but are not yet published.

I ask you this? Does your income fluctuate between winter and summer by more than 20%? Mine does, and most of the people I know (residents in skilled trade jobs) do.

Like most Alaskans, currently it does not, but it did for many years when I worked in Prudhoe Bay, so I can relate to what it is like. I currently manage the same company, and many of our employees do have their income fluctuate as mine did.

Not always, you'd be surprised. In 2004, I caught more reds dipnetting than my buddy did with his Cook Inlet Drift Permit. He was financially hurt badly.

No offense, but anecdotal stories are not facts. The dipnetting harvest every year on the kenai usually falls between 200,000 and 400,000 fish total. The commercial sockeye harvest in cook inlet averages around 3.4 million (over the last 10 years). They had a "terrible year" last year at 1.3 million. So yes, always.

I'm not an anti-Anchorage or anti-conservationist in the least. However I've been here long enough (40 years- my whole life except when I was outside for the military) and lived in enough places (Homer, Wasilla, Anchorage, Palmer, and Bethel) to see many sides of the same argument.
In the end, I side with the observations with my own eyes. Too many people are vying for the same limited resource. Comm Fishermen take fish, and make an economy out of it. Sportfishermen feed part time industries with guides from Oregon, and part time college kids. Personal Use Dipnet fishermen do it because it's fun, and feed the economy of gas stations and boat ramp operators.

Me too! Except only 33 years, as I am 33 years old. You will not get any argument from me on these points. There are good and bad arguments on both sides, but what is going on on both sides is not good for the resource and will eventually lead to the decimation of populations just as it did in the lower 48 if it is allowed to continue. NON RESIDENT comm fisherman take fish and make an economy out of it, as you said. NON RESIDENT sport fisherman provide jobs for non resident guides as well. However, my overarching point is that the vast majority of this resource is being harvested and providing income for, NON RESIDENTS. I think that is where the focus of scrutiny should be. Not on me and my 7 dipnetted fish that I use to feed my family, and occasionally share with my brothers and sisters who grew up here but now live out of state.
To be clear, I actually DO agree with you that MANY dipnetters absolutely DO abuse the resource, harvesting insane amounts of fish every year that they really don't NEED, regardless of escapement numbers. And ADFG stands by and lets them do it with insanely high limits. But again, I am not one of these people. I will only dipnet if escapement is well above the requirement, and most of the time not even then. And when I do, I take only what I KNOW I will use. I harvest more than enough with the rod and reel most years to suffice.

 

[loadclear]

In the most recent published data from the Alaska Department of Labor and Workforce Development (2017), non-residents accounted for 61.8% of the gross earnings of commercial fishing permit holders and their crews (this does not include processing). When it comes to fish processing (that would be one of the "tangential" industries you were in support of before) non-residents make up 74.6% of the workforce. According to AEDC president and CEO Bill Popp's presentation I attended this afternoon, those numbers increased in 2018, but are not yet published.

Gross earnings... sounds like you're talking a lot about high seas Pollock fishermen with 500' boats, and "Deadliest Catch" crab fishermen in high gross earning industries... not the average SALMON fisherman who owns a 32"-56" boat, lives in Alaska, and has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand.
I sincerely apologize for not finding the law for giving PU fish away. I know it exists, but I'm not inclined to dig through the AAC and statutes to find it. I (wrongly) assumed it was common knowledge.
I think we don't disagree on all that much, except the "Rural Urban Divide." I think it's invisible to most Anchorage folk, and the argument is ruined by more than a few worthless leaches who live in rural Alaska, but there is in fact a difference of perspective from those who work 9-5 in Anchorage vs those who work 16-20 hours a day in the summer, and less than 4 in the winter in towns like Homer, Kenai, Seward, Cordova, etc.
For what it's worth, I do have a NSTC card, occasionally work on the slope, and as a talkative annoying prick, I've gotten the perspective of folks everywhere from Cape Newenham to Metlakatla and dozens of places in-between.

 

[lochinvar]

Totally off any above topic, Navy Flake and Fish Death would be an awesome name for a metal band.

 

[alaskanpiper]

not the average SALMON fisherman who owns a 32"-56" boat, lives in Alaska, and has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Gross earnings applies to the entire industry, it is not specific to Pollock or Crab fishing. And I would argue the commercial salmon fishing, having far and away the largest negative impact on salmon populations, has everything to do with the discussion at hand (that of salmon population sustainability for residents harvesting salmon for food). I do not know off hand what the division of state residency is across the specific subsects of commercial fishing, only that commercial salmon fishing makes up a huge percentage of an industry dominated by non-residents, so you may be right, the percentage of residents in commercial salmon fishing specifically may be higher than in other commercial industries, I don't know statistics for that off hand.

I sincerely apologize for not finding the law for giving PU fish away. I know it exists, but I'm not inclined to dig through the AAC and statutes to find it.

You did find it, it does exist, you just quoted it above, and as I assumed before, me sharing fish with my family is completely legal. I have never seen a regulation stating it isn't, nor have I ever heard anyone express that as "common knowledge." Obviously our experiences vary in that regard. I looked as well on ADFG's site, and re-read the PU regulations, and couldn't find anything stating that it is not legal to share PU fish with non-resident family members. In fact the law you quoted states the opposite.
You are correct, we do not disagree on that much, aside from our viewpoints on commercial fishings impact on the resource, and whether that is more validated than Alaskan residents fishing for food. You just have opinions tailored to your experience and lifestyle, close to commercial fishing, and I have opinions that are tailored to my opinions and lifestyle, that of an Alaska resident harvesting a resource in their home state for food, as well as cultural recreation.
I do not disagree with you on the "Rural Urban Divide." However, what we have discussed as of yet has nothing to do with "Rural." Homer and/or Knik River CDP are not Rural. Rural populations (typically native villages) typically fish under subsistence permits, which is a whole different discussion. Their dependence on salmon as a food resource far outweighs anything I have ever experienced, or anything we have discussed as of yet.
Again, most of the initial points you made about dipnetting and PU fishing being abused, I fully agree with, including the fact that this is likely most often perpetrated by Anchorage and Kenai area residents. These points just do not apply to my specific situation as you initially assumed.

 

[jaytex1969]

Navy Flake and Fish Death

Can we hear more about the Navy Flake? :nana:

 

[alaskanpiper]

Can we hear more about the Navy Flake

?

Yes! Sorry, haha. As you may have guessed, the above issues are very passionate for Alaskans and the whole commercial/sport issue is a debate that has raged for decades. Honestly glad to see another Alaskan on the forum though! (One capable of civil debate no less!) There are precious few of us.
I liked the Navy Flake, although not as much as I had hoped to. It was a freshly opened 2017 tin. Going to give it a couple months and try it again, also when I can pay a little more attention to it, there was alot going on so I wasn't in the best mindset to sip and analyze. I expected to get more notes from the rum than I did, but I really like the low level of latakia in the blend. It was a perfectly subtle compliment to the overall flavor, just a tiny touch of that smokey spice. Overall I'll probably scoop up a couple more tins If they present themselves, but not one I will be cellaring deep, at least not after my first impression.
Probably my 3rd favorite SG/GH so far, behind Happy Bogie and FVF.
Next Navy-ish blend on deck is Salty Dogs from Dan Tobacco. Arrived today and is a beautifully earthy smelling incredibly dark and beautiful rock solid plug. Excited to try it!

 

[briarbuck]

A very interesting conversation. Always enjoy learning about new topics. Appreciate it.
EDIT: Salty Dogs is indeed awesome stuff.

 

[jaytex1969]

That Happy Bogie, any Lakeland essence?

 

[ashdigger]

If anyone cares, I don't have 50 pounds in my freezer anymore, I gave some to my "immediate family members". And by immediate, I mean anyone who showed up to my house last night for the grilled fish and beer blowout.

 

[loadclear]

AK Piper:
Mea Culpa. I called a trooper acquaintance of mine this morning, since I was beating my head against the computer screen trying to find the law that I KNOW I've seen.
He said that they changed the verbiage a few years ago to what you said about sell or barter etc.
There wasn't any kind of public press release when they did that, so I never realized. I apologize.

I do not disagree with you on the "Rural Urban Divide." However, what we have discussed as of yet has nothing to do with "Rural." Homer and/or Knik River CDP are not Rural. Rural populations (typically native villages) typically fish under subsistence permits, which is a whole different discussion. Their dependence on salmon as a food resource far outweighs anything I have ever experienced, or anything we have discussed as of yet.

I agree that there is a whole other discussion of the legal definition of "rural," particularly in the federal subsistance realm. I REALLY don't want to go down that rabbit hole
Several years ago, some National Guard buddies of mine were sitting around BSing. Among us was a pretty good sampling of Alaskans.... A guy from Homer, a couple from Anchorage, one from Bethel, a few Valley guys, some Juneau guys, and even a guy from Kenny Lake. We were talking about "what is rural in AK?" The consensus that we came up with (after a lot of beer), was that if you can stop by a Fred Meyer on the way home for work, you're urban. If you have to set aside and plan for a day to go to Fred Meyer, you're rural.
Knik River CDP, is that where you are?

 

[alaskanpiper]

I agree that there is a whole other discussion of the legal definition of "rural," particularly in the federal subsistance realm. I REALLY don't want to go down that rabbit hole
Several years ago, some National Guard buddies of mine were sitting around BSing. Among us was a pretty good sampling of Alaskans.... A guy from Homer, a couple from Anchorage, one from Bethel, a few Valley guys, some Juneau guys, and even a guy from Kenny Lake. We were talking about "what is rural in AK?" The consensus that we came up with (after a lot of beer), was that if you can stop by a Fred Meyer on the way home for work, you're urban. If you have to set aside and plan for a day to go to Fred Meyer, you're rural.

Yeah, what constitutes rural in Alaska is certainly an opinion broadly influenced by many factors, and would certainly vary greatly from individual to individual. I would agree, quite the rabbit hole of a discussion, and not one I want to go down either, hahaha. I like your casual definition as it applies to the road system, although I'm sure some in Native Villages would come up with their own comments about Fred Meyer not even being on the table.
Knik River is where I live currently. I grew up splitting time between Anchorage (Which I would certainly call Urban) and Shell Lake (Which I would certainly define as rural, haha) until I was 14. Went to HS in Anchorage, then attended undergrad at Washington State University, doing 6 and 1s in Prudhoe during the summer months and winter breaks. After undergrad I moved to Knik and got a Masters degree while working in Prudhoe full time. I now live around 15 miles off the Glenn on the south side of the Knik River. As I mentioned before I would certainly not define where I live as Rural. I can be at a grocery store or a hospital in Palmer in 20 minutes. I would equate it to living at mile 12 or so of East End Road in the Homer area, the obvious (and massive) difference being that I can go to Costco.

 

[alaskanpiper]

He said that they changed the verbiage a few years ago to what you said about sell or barter etc.
There wasn't any kind of public press release when they did that, so I never realized. I apologize.

No need for an apology. Just want to be clear again, while the law may not prevent it, your point is still valid. The "spirit" of personal use fishing is to fill Alaskan freezers (with fish for smoking in my case, as mentioned in my OP) not for boxes and boxes of fish to be sent to the lower 48. Seeing this happen every season with people who harvest hundreds of fish dipnetting regardless of escapement numbers, along with seeing boxes and boxes of fish caught by non-resident sport fisherman (who inexplicably have no seasonal limits) shipped out of the state bothers the shit out of me.
You assuming I was one of these people was not unreasonable, given that it is not uncommon to see at all, and my original post did not dive into specifics when it comes to my dipnetting habits and what I do with the fish.
I don't see me sending immediate family members home with a couple fillets as something that goes against the "spirit" of personal use fishing, but you are well within your rights to disagree with me on that. I just think there are much bigger impacts on sustainability, such as the above mentioned non-rez harvest and dipnet pillaging, and the previously hashed out commercial fishing issues, that we will have to agree to disagree on as Alaskans have done for generations now with that particular issue, hahaha.

 

[alaskanpiper]

That Happy Bogie, any Lakeland essence?

I didn't get any out of it at all. Tastes like a straightforward, strong, full flavor working man's tobacco to me. Not like rose petals dipped in perfume and pressed into a cake with potpourri filler.