Ken Burns Vietnam War Documentary on PBS

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mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,211
59,147
pappy, I like the detail and breadth of this documentary, painful as it is to watch. Party loyalties pop up, but I think they are pretty well rolled under by the facts and events. The parties, the military, and various civilian factions, and other components of society, played both positive and negative roles. It's a lot to take in and digest, or not digest. I find a lot of the details unearthed startling to either learn or re-remember. A lot of the thinking was applying the experiences of World War II to an entirely different sort of war. The U.S. had a sort of hangover of pride and certainty and not enough regional knowledge and expertise to insist upon the differences. Vietnam was never going to be a pretty conflict, but it could have been smaller, shorter, and more satisfactory in outcome with more insight and knowledge about the region. Even today, every retelling leads to endless and diverging discussion and alternate visions.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
23,057
58,930
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Warren and Jesse, those are really motivational posts however let's not forget about the 3rd World Countries. Not everyone has a luxury of choosing the field they want to work in.
Also true, but people also leave third world countries to pursue their dreams. That's what my grandparents did. And I'm very fortunate to be able to pursue mine. But nowhere did anyone lay down a red carpet for me. You want to achieve anything you need to go after it regardless of what anyone thinks, the risks be damned.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
23,057
58,930
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
jvnshr - Burns is a documentary film maker. Technically he is a very good documentary film maker. But he also lets his political views affect what he produces and lends a certain bias into the finished product. What is surprising is that he undertook creating a Viet Nam documentary that has at times shown the Democratic party - which he supports - in a negative light. I know some Democrats would like to forget that the escalation of the Viet Nam war was during the Kennedy & Johnson administration and that it was a Republican who was in office when it ended. I'm not trying to be political here because Eisenhower - a Republican - could have made an effort to prevent it before it happened.
You are being political. So let's enjoin. The Democratic Party of that era was a thready coalition of its old Southern Conservative pro slavery base, the "Solid South", "boll weevil" Democrats and a Liberal, largely Northeast base. And Conservatives favored involvement in Vietnam as a part of the policy of "containing" Communism. Johnson was a mix of conservative beliefs mixed with enough intelligence to realize that change was necessary, even if it pissed off his mentors and supporters. A lot of that old Democratic Solid South is now in the GOP.
The Republican party of that era was far more balanced, with both liberal, and conservative wings. Today's GOP is far different and one can give no better example of this that that the EPA was established under a Republican president to combat environmentally destructive practices by irresponsible companies, and today's Republicans seek to abolish it. Nixon chose to cut the US's losses and pull out of an unpopular war.
Simplistic references mask a far more complex history and are not accurate, nor honest.

 

mso489

Lifer
Feb 21, 2013
41,211
59,147
This is simplistic, but I'll say it. The benefit of having served in the military, with much careful reading and research in advance that did not support the LBJ nor the Nixon line on our continuing presence in Vietnam -- the benefit of having served is to not feel completely estranged from today's and yesterday's military people who also have served and do serve in ambiguous and difficult conflicts where the success or failure are hard to judge. I don't know how I would regard myself if I hadn't served, as deeply skeptical as I was of the geopolitics of the conflict. The one certainty is that conscription simply can't be done in a fair way. People who support universal service visualize that someone else's child will be in the military, and their child will serve in the Peace Corps or in a civilian service job. Drafting pre-med students would delay medical practice into peoples' forties, which is not cost effective. Farming. The ministry. Law. Family obligations. Another fact is that no matter what your military service, it changes your life in fundamental ways. You can make a good life. You can gain some advantages. But your education, career, and mindset are simply different than they otherwise would have been, whether you stay stateside, serve in combat, or in the combat zone. It's a life changer, no question -- not all good nor all bad, but not reversible.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
51
@Sablebrush: This goes back to the earlier discussion of what is taught, or not taught, in the school system. Simplistic references are the default setting; there is no trying to unravel a complex history, and it is inaccurate and dishonest. There is no parsing of the early (Lincoln's) Republican Party versus the Democratic Party they opposed; no acknowledgement of the conservatism of the '50s/'60s era Democratic Party and their sudden shift towards embracing any cause seen as progressive to save their hidebound old Dixiecrat skins. It is inaccurate, it is dishonest, and that's precisely what many of the thread participants are bitching about.

 

lazar

Part of the Furniture Now
May 5, 2015
503
187
So, just to confirm: politics ARE or ARE NOT allowed in the forum? So far on this thread we have references to "liberal crap", "deplorables", the evils of liberal education, and even the right-wing dog whistle term "cucked."
Here's my experience of Vietnam. I was a little kid. Before my mom met my step-father, he enlisted (was not drafted) and was a sergeant in the Marines. During that time he saw, did, and commanded others to do the most appalling acts of human atrocity. Because he himself was commanded to do them. He torched villages that had not been evacuated, shot women and children who were fleeing the U.S. soldiers on foot, used napalm, etc. etc. The rest of his life he struggled with deep suicidal depression, alcoholism, and inflicting abuse on others. He could not sustain healthy human relationships, and no PTSD counseling was ever offered to him, so he made the lives of everyone around him miserable. What a snowflake, right? And for what - to contribute to the deaths of around 2 million civilians in a failed war that achieved nothing. And people still say they would have been proud to fight in it.
And here's my experience of the psychological effects of the 2017 election. My mother is nearly 80, sharp as a tack and one of the strongest people I've ever known. Her life was not always easy, but she "pulled herself up by her bootstraps", got an education, a good job, and raised three kids mostly on her own. After the 2017 election she was profoundly depressed for two reasons. The first is that when she was younger my mother had been sexually assaulted a number of times, and her first sexual experience was being raped. So it was deeply upsetting to her that the country had just knowingly and willfully elected a man who bragged about grabbing women by their genitals. The President of the United States should be a role model, someone to make everyone in the country feel like he's on their side, and that he cares about them. For someone who was raped and sexually assaulted, Trump somehow did not quite fit the bill, and it felt to my mother as if a guy just like her abusers had been elected to lead the country. Before passing judgement on the women who were so upset that they needed counseling after the election, imagine for a second if your mother or daughter or wife had been raped and how they might feel about electing a President who made such remarks.
The second reason she was so upset is that her father (my grandfather) fought in World War II. He drove a tank, saw combat in Italy where he was forced to shoot an adolescent boy who was about to fire on him, and he helped to liberate concentration camps in Germany. He was a hero, and his medals and photos are stored in his old army trunk. He was also of Spanish origin - his family came to the U.S. in the 19th century, from Spain. His dark skin meant that he was constantly a victim of racial profiling and comments, and he was constantly called a beaner, a Mex etc. One of my mother's earliest memories is driving across country after my grandfather returned from the war in Europe. They stopped at a cafe' for dinner and were refused service. They were told, "We don't serve spics here." My grandfather who just came back from fighting for this country, couldn't get a meal because his skin was too dark. Another snowflake, huh? So when the country elects a man who makes the kinds of comments Trump makes about Hispanics, defends Arpaio, tries to cancel DACA etc., it feels to my mother like the country is in charge of the oppressor.
My grandfather and my mother are as American as any white Republican, but they have not been treated with the dignity, justice, and equality that America stands for and that should be our common rights.

 

aldecaker

Lifer
Feb 13, 2015
4,407
51
Well, thanks for fucking up what was, up til now, a completely civil conversation. The problem isn't discussing politics; it's people like you who can't keep their emotional outbursts out of it.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
23,057
58,930
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
Well, thanks for fucking up what was, up til now, a completely civil conversation. The problem isn't discussing politics; it's people like you who can't keep their emotional outbursts out of it.
So, just to confirm: politics ARE or ARE NOT allowed in the forum? So far on this thread we have references to "liberal crap", "deplorables", the evils of liberal education, and even the right-wing dog whistle term "cucked."
Both true. Some people here simply cannot keep from pissing their political bias into their posts.

 
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