Ken Burns Vietnam War Documentary on PBS

[newbroom]

At issue is the objective. War is not a popular activity, nor is it conducive to discussion.
As proud Americans, we express a value for democracy and freedom. Gov't. of the people.
It seems that in Viet Nam, the US was fighting against Communism, a threat to freedom and democracy. Capitalism seems to be an essential ingredient.
Today, we are in business with Communist China. I guess Capitalism can work with Communism after all?

 

[aldecaker]

Glad to see you back online, Mike!
I'm not sure how much of it is Capitalism working with Communism, and how much of it is China's "Communist in the streets, Capitalist in the sheets" mentality. I don't believe they can quite figure themselves out; they like the fruits of Capitalism, but love the brutal dictatorial repression and undiluted power high that comes with Communism.

 

[balkisobrains]

@ mso489 it looks like the PBS website will be showing all of the episodes. As of today, they have added some more and have the first four available to watch. I don't bother with cable or pay services of any kind beyond gig fiber internet. Nice to see that PBS is still actually accessible to the public.
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/

 

[mso489]

From what I've heard from visitors to Vietnam, communist or not, they are not fond of the Chinese, so that monolithic vision was never going to gel. As near as I can discern, one reason the Vietnamese have warmed up, at least economically, to the U.S. despite the war is to balance the Chinese presence. Same thing about the great fear of closeness between Russia and China (which I shared as a teenager). Those nations like each other only somewhat and have many issues.
There was great rage in the U.S. about "who lost China," meaning which Americans. Whereas, going back over the history, the U.S. had little to do with it, and only understood the victory of Mao over the Nationalists about 40 years later, and many are still learning about this.
The second episode of the Burns documentary -- not so many conclusions, but plenty of grist, a lot to reconsider. It was not a binary struggle. Many players.

 

[wyfbane]

Newsroom! Glad you are ok and back online.
MSO, I thought John Wayne laid it out fairly well in The Green Berets...
Warren, you are right. Parents are failing and are allowing schools to have undue influence. Wait, I think I said thst too. So we are arguing degrees then. And for that you DO need to spend time on campuses. I don't subscribe to TV models. I am on my campus and several more and I explore grad schools. I am in high schools all over my county, and I am networking with more and more teachers as I prepare to begin educating kids.
I'm not sure there is a tv program that is showing how wide and deep this has invaded the system.

 

[warren]

Teaching one's children "critical thinking" when they are young, reinforcing such as they grow, making them self-reliant and self-confident, simply means they are prepared for college.
A well prepared, critically thinking student can easily filter out the pap, keep his/her mouth shut and get a degree without being contaminated by whatever is the "social cause de jur." They've been taught how to play the college game, how discern what is important and what is frivolous. Those students interest me. The others? They will be the employees/subordinates of the prepared. Society needs them too. Fortunately, there will be plenty of them, as they are the "strong back" on which the societies are built.
If you want to have an impact as an educator, elementary schools are the place to be, teaching critical thinking. Teach the mostly empty, wee minds to question everything they are told, how to weigh different perspectives, seek motives others positions, to make people defend their positions, and above all instill in them self-respect, to trust themselves and to avoid "bandwagons" as much as possible.

 

[pappymac]

Thought I posted here earlier. After watching the first episode I have come to the realization that Burns' documentary is taking a biased view of history. He's seems to be painting a picture of Ho Chi Minh as a poor misunderstood freedom fighter who wanted the United States on his side while the US Government and CIA were tied to the French. I think Burns is using the same brush the media has long used in painting the picture of Che Guevara the want to portray.
Vietnam was a bad war. The US would have been wiser to follow the recommendation of General Douglas MacArthur who said "Anyone who commits the American Army in the Asian mainland should have his head examined."

 

[warren]

As a rookie copper told me in the academy, "It wasn't a great war but, it was the only one we had." He was a Marine LRRP.

 

[woodsroad]

Thread of the Year Award

 

[warren]

That's what makes history so damned entertaining. In my school days, the books were simply dates and events to be memorized for tests. Real histories are always full of bias when getting into the whys of events. The deeper the author goes in such, the more the author has to interpret. We interpret things based on our understanding of human nature, our concept of right and wrong. Very few authors, and they are the great ones in my opinion, examine events from all sides. It's a struggle to be fully objective, keep biases and preconceived notions out of our thinking.
It is nearly impossible to change the thinking of someone who was raised on, "The American Civil War was fought over slavery." Indeed it was, among other things. Or, the old canard, "Roosevelt knew Japan was going to attack Pearl." A lot of knowledgeable people were sure Japan had to attack the US, not one of them could tell you the day, time or place. MacArthur's father, General A. MacArthur predicted such in the early 1900s. History is usually very nuanced and people in general do not have the attention span for "nuance."
Winston Churchill, whom I read often, wrote great history but, he minimized his mistakes, and those of certain relatives, and stressed his brilliance. The shame of that is his brilliance needs no stressing and some of his mistakes are fascinating, deserving of study. His simple book about the American Civil War is spectacular in my opinion. But, one must read other authors on the same subject to understand how great his grasp of the war was.

 

[pappymac]

What Warren said.

 

[wyfbane]

Warren. Are you reading from a brochure? Everything you say is a great plan... that isn't happening. I know very well what needs to be done and how to raise kids. I am a superlative parent on the path to being a terrific teacher. Looking to my right and left, I dont see the commitment to the things that you and I agree need to happen in the classroom.It's just not happening an masse on the level needed to preserve this republic. And they keep complicating the education system with more and more SpEd integration and differentiated learning expectations.
It baffles me that I present these views and you telling me what I already know needs to happen is a counter argument.
Kids need to learn critical thinking... ya think?
Kids can use thus super power to resist 80% of their peers and 95% of the curriculum/faculty... Maybe. If they aren't worn down. If they don't get tired of the hassle. If they don't end up falling for some young thing who will undermine them.
The point is, every generation will get whittled down. Especially with attitudes like yours. You sit up there and poo poo this. They just laugh and wait for us to die off.

 

[warren]

I am not arguing with you. I simply think what you perceive as a serious problem is simply neither new nor serious. Some parents are actively and intimately involved in their children's in all aspects of raising and education. Many leave it to others to form the child's personality. The children who are prepared will successfully resist the dogma of certain professors as they entered the "hallowed halls" fully understanding why they are there, they have a goal, and they are self-assured enough not to be side-tracked by social issues and the need to be in a herd. Those lacking that self-confidence, that will to succeed, are simply wasting money (usual mom and dad's) and are not destined to be successful until they mature later in life, if they do.
If a student is properly equipped mentally they understand 90% of what they will hear is pure unadulterated bullshit and they are miles ahead of their fellow students. They will also understand and clearly see a lot of their peers as still children, ill prepared for college.
As a soon to be newly minted educator, I wish you luck, you have my admiration and I hope you never lose your enthusiasm, your drive. I sincerely wish you to be wildly successful, your motives are pure. But, you are going to have to be tough and you should understand that many of your peers will work hard to see you are not successful. Your success will be an embarrassment to them. They will resent you your success. I want you to embarrass as many as possible.

 

[warren]

one other observation. I raised mine right I believe. So when I die "they" will have yet another generation to contend with. Should I stay around long enough, eventually "they" will have my grandson to contend with. So, I'm training my replacements.

 

[deathmetal]

If a student is properly equipped mentally they understand 90% of what they will hear is pure unadulterated bullshit and they are miles ahead of their fellow students.

In my experience, that is social capital, more than understanding critical thinking, the ability to do which well is a rare faculty among humans, and therefore cannot be taught so much as not obstructed. But a parent who points out that the world is mostly vanity, people are mostly pretense, and that almost everything said is a lie, and instead teaches some basic "grounding" concepts and values will always advance their offspring. Good luck to your "replacements," as they have big shoes to fill.

 

[fnord]

Mike:
Pay attention to this:

Your success will be an embarrassment to them. They will resent you your success. I want you to embarrass as many as possible.

Grab a root and growl, bub.
Fnord

 

[wyfbane]

Aw, you guys. Warren and Fnord. You got me, right in the feels. Well my wife is one and I am going to be an educator who "gets it," and will drag as many of the kiddos to the light as she and I can. On a lighter note, this was the most gentlemanly disagreement type thing I've ever had. Warren you are awesome.

 

[tbradsim1]

I wish all kids had a Wyfbane to teach them, or a Father, Mother, Grandparents who put their charges in the right path. I started my 8 yr old Grandson right, taught him to piss off the porch and try to hit the cat, :and how to clench a cob the right way, tobbaco will follow many years down the road at his choice. Guess it's working he's soon to be an Eagle Scout. ::

 

[randelli]

Well I want to watch it for sure but we don't do cable and my area doesn't have a local PBS station I can get over the airwaves. Maybe it will be on Netflix or Amazon Prime soon.
My grampa served on the USS Lexington during WWII, my dad served on a picket destroyer during Korea, my brother served in the USAF during peacetime; and I never served. I sometimes wonder how my life would be different today if I had.
My son leaves for the USMC on October 10 - wants to go recon and hopes to cross over to SEAL. I was thinking Airforce, but hey, where is the excitement in that. I am both proud and terrified!

 

[warren]

Forward air controllers lead a fairly interesting life. Flying nearly ground level through a hot LZ making sure everything leaves via the ramp and not the side of the aircraft was exciting work. Oh, and delivering beer, ice cream and ammunition to besieged marines, getting a wing shot up and spending a couple of days under fire was very... exciting. It wasn't 24/7 for sure. It was exciting enough for me though.
Yes indeed, the Air Force was very dull. I suspect the PJs would all agree with me as they drop behind the lines to locate a downed pilot and extract him.
But, hey, all kidding aside, thank the lad profusely for me. I do appreciate his service, even if it is as a "sea going babysitter" in the Department of the Navy. :clap: Good on him!