Kansas City Bans Smoking In Your Own Home If You're Poor

[necron99]

If its govco housing it ain't yours. When you suckle from the teat the teat owner makes the rules. Freedom is for those who are responsible for themselves. Sorry if it rubbs you wrong but it is what it is.

I am poor by American standards but I work and don't get govco hand outs so I keep my freedom. I tend my freedoms by the sweat of my brow.

 

[lonestar]

I see this every day in my neighborhood

Or so you say.

:rofl:

 

[daveinlax]

This series deals with the disability culture in the US. It interesting and fairly entertaining. 8O

Unfit For Work, The Startling Rise in Disability in America

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

 

[simnettpratt]

I think we all agree the professional victims that only want to take, and feel it's their right not to contribute what they can, can go to hell. The thing is, a rule like this also punishes the innocent, who do give what they are able to society. An example is me - if I lived in subsidized housing I wouldn't be able to smoke the pipe tobacco given to me by generous members of this forum. That's punishing an innocent man.
murf made an excellent point saying ok, no smoking in the house, but to prohibit smoking on your porch or doorstep is going too far.
While both are bad, I would rather see a guilty man let go, than an innocent man found guilty. In both cases the guilty man goes free! In the Kansas City example, that means I would rather see the minority of professional victims allowed to smoke, than the majority of just poor folk denied. A compromise would be to ban smoking in the house, but not to prohibit it on your own damn porch outside.
We pipers face the constant battle to educate the ignorant of the fact that pipe smoking is NOT the same as cigarette smoking.

 

[dryseason91]

@Necron,
Fair point, but whether they're on welfare or not the poor should be enabled to live, not just exist. If one chooses to support oneself then that's commendable, but the point (or at least, it should be) of welfare is that there are many who are simply unable to support themselves and governments - and, I would argue, fellow citizens - have a duty of care in this regard.

 

[metarzan]

I would really like to see photos of these welfare complexes where "career victims" are in the minority. I would not be brave enough to venture into the places I envision when I read this thread at any time of the day for a picture.

 

[simnettpratt]

I did two three month volunteer projects for the Salvation Army's Angel Tree program. Kindly strangers donate clothes and toys to little poor kids for Christmas. There is a special week at the end of the program where the families actually come in to receive the bags of gifts. I was interested in seeing what percentage were career victims, and what percentage were just poor. You can tell by their humble or not humble attitude. The vast majority were not professional victims, just poor. I was very surprised, I thought most would be career leeches, but most were not.
We gave everyone something we did not advertise, and they did not expect: a gift certificate for $10 worth of food at Carnival, Sack N Save or Minyards. You couldn't use it for tobacco, booze or lottery tickets, just food.
That made a lot of people cry. $10 worth of food at Christmas.

I would not be brave enough to venture into the places I envision when I read this thread at any time of the day for a picture.

I thought that too, until I personally MET about 12,000 families (twice) that had to accept welfare, so their kids could have a Christmas. tarzan my friend, you've envisioned what they're like and have formed your opinion; I've actually met them, and have formed mine. The vast majority of folks I met were just poor. Who am I to say they can't have a bowl of OTC in a $5 corn cob once in a while?

 

[numbersix]

I would really like to see photos of these welfare complexes where "career victims" are in the minority. I would not be brave enough to venture into the places I envision when I read this thread at any time of the day for a picture.

Very sad that this is the image some Americans have - but stereotyping people is IMHO *always* a mistake. People who do this (as you admit) never actually venture into these places or meet the people who live there because they only know what the headlines tell them (that are by design sensationalized).
My wife was raised by her mother and was forced to spend a few years in Gov't assisted housing ("the projects"). And yes, it's true, not a nice place to live by any stretch - but they are also not filled with lazy good for nothings either.
My wife's mom was an extremely hard working immigrant who came to the U.S. in the '50s from Puerto Rico. Their lives took many turns (some good, some bad) and eventually, through a lot of hard work by her mother, got out of the city, bought her own home and sent her daughter to college.
I suppose it helps some to feel superior by characterizing poor people as "career victims" - but the vast majority of the people in the world are by strict definition "poor" and I would say that the majority are not looking for a free ride.

 

[simnettpratt]

...stereotyping people is IMHO *always* a mistake. People who do this (as you admit) never actually venture into these places or meet the people who live there because they only know what the headlines tell them (that are by design sensationalized).

+1 six.
Hey, I'm not characterizing poor people as career victims by any means. Those I characterize as career victims are the able folks that nonetheless believe other people owe them a living, and they are in the minority of poor folks.
The career victims won't pay it forward when they are able, they were OWED that assistance, damnit. I have no respect for those folks. You know old buddy Dave (me) is sick and basically disabled right now and live off my family, but when I get extra tobacco and pipes I pay it forward, so far to sandoval, lonestar, brother-in-law and andystewart. I am not owed shit. From meeting thousands of folks needing assistance, I believe most are that way, appreciate the help and long for the day when they can help someone else.
If you drew a diagram of the wealth of all the people on the planet, it would be a pyramid, and though I'm poor by American standards, I'm typing this on a computer I built, in a house with heat and A/C, have food in my fridge and Bullseye Flake in my pipe. I'd be near the very top.
I do not feel it is right for politicians to punish honest poor folks by denying them the ability to smoke a bowl of OTC once in a while in their house or on their porch, just because some of them are assholes. If anyone else doesn't share my opinion fine, we can still share a bowl and argue over whether filters rock or not.

 

[metarzan]

Six maybe your hood is different from my hood but I am a scanner nut and know what goes on where in my area. Also, I lived in Rio Piedras (ask your wifes mom) for a few months and felt safer there amongst the nightly gunfire than I would in certain areas of the town I live in now. I have driven a truck picking up donations for the Paralyzed Veterans foundation and met all kinds. I have made a few trips to the S.S. office with an elder and felt like I was in another country, and not another old person in sight. As stated previously I have zero problem helping those who can't help themselves but from what I have seen I would put the fraud rate at over 90%. By fraud I don't think most are doing anything illegal, but I know people in worse condition that still actually work for a living. Government makes it too easy to qualify and once you are in, it's like AOL, you can never leave. And yes I do feel superior to "career victims".

 

[numbersix]

Hey, I'm not characterizing poor people as career victims by any means.

No worries simnettpratt. I guess my dander is up because there have been more than a few people on this thread who appear to be saying "hey, I'm not prejudiced against the poor or anything" and then go off on supposed "career victims" as if they represent the majority of the poor - and by doing so, heavily imply that because bad apples exist, they all deserve to not enjoy any decent, quality of life. Prejudice is prejudice.

 

[necron99]

Please understand I am not trying to put stink on anyone.

For those who can support themselves it is not a choice but a duty. if everyone saw the welfare system as an austerity stop gap (in that case all luxuries would be laid aside until better times) then there would be more for those who can not (the disabled). That is what the system is for, and as mr. Six pointed out what many use it for. And I do salute you mother in law, number six. She did a difficult thing. Now know she is not the only one there are many who fight through and work their way into better times. Kings to them.

For those who choose not to they deserve nothing and should have nothing.

For those disabled and can not. We are a country of good folks and of many resources they can have what ever dignity we can afford them because we are compassionate.

 

[simnettpratt]

In large measure we all agree: none of us has any time for those that suck off the system when they don't have to, none of us has a problem with those that need assistance getting some help from our surplus, even up to the dignity of an occasional luxury, like pipe smoking. If you're poor, you don't get as many luxuries as often as if you were wealthy.
I see the only difference is tarzan believes the fraud rate is over 90%, because of his experiences, and I believe the fraud rate is under 10%, because of my experiences. I don't think tarzan is lying, and I know I'm not lying. I have not met every family on assistance in this country. It is possible I'm standing by the elephant's tail and saying it's more like a rope, and tarzan is standing at the trunk, and saying it's more like a snake.
If I'd seen a 90% fraud rate, I think I'd feel more like tarzan, if he'd seen a 10% fraud rate, I think he'd feel more like me. tarzan has donated time for paralyzed veterans, I've donated time for poor kids' Christmas presents.
I think our differences stem only from what we believe the fraud rate to be.
PS While I kinda do feel superior to career leeches, I shouldn't; I do plenty of bad things myself, and even if I don't do the same bad things, I'm still guilty.

 

[andrew]

They have this where I live too, Government owned housing projects are mainly smoke free or becoming so. There's also several high end luxury apartments in the thousands of dollars a month that are smoke free also. So it's not really singling out poor people. Technically the government owns the housing, smoking lowers the value of the housing by damaging the paint etc... So if you're lucky enough to get into one of these government housing programs which are quite nice actually and paying a very fair price for it, you shouldn't really be complaining too much about these things.

 

[metarzan]

Good summary simnettpratt. Sorry if I offended anyone as that was not my intention.

 

[simnettpratt]

@andrew: Yeah, murf made a good point that he sees a reason to ban smoking inside, especially when those doing the banning are thinking cigarettes (which is what it would be 99% of the time), but it may have gone too far to ban it outside on your own porch or doorstep.
@tarzan: Thanks. Until I meet all the people on assistance in this country, all I have to go on is the ~24,000 people I met in Dallas, TX over two years who asked for help getting their kids Christmas presents. Really glad to see you didn't form your 90% number from watching the evening propagan 'news'.
Thanks mods for letting this thread run it's course. I bet Al ssjones' trigger finger was twitching at times

 

[plateauguy]

I can remember a time when we were so poor that we couldn't qualify for government assisted housing (235 houses). For the life of me I can't imagine why anyone would be "career" poor.

 

[simnettpratt]

@plateau: I grew up in a stone farmhouse in South Wales in the 60s, that had no electricity or indoor plumbing, and the only heat was a wood burning stove, which of course went out at night. We put in a fireplace, and a sink my dad hooked up to the well, so we could get water in the house without freezing our way down to the well, but we never had electricity.
I don't think career poor is the accurate term, but career victim. They're the ones that are able to work, but feel the opposite of poverty is justice. They feel society owes them a living, and if you and I don't pay their way, we are being unjust and victimizing them.
Not at all the working poor, or the sick or disabled. Career victims are the ones that would win the lottery and not share it, because we all owed them that money anyway.
Being a career victim allows you to put the blame on others for your situation. For those folks, I have neither sympathy nor tobacco.