Just in from STG/MacBaren/Sutliff

[gcm]

Why would this announcement affect MacBaren making these under contract to K&K? Presumably STG took on the responsibility to meet contractual agreements when they bought MB. It's more likely will be that STG will offer to complete the contract, for however long it goes. It's the name on the label that counts, however meaningless in reality.

Yes but as said by the German sales rep of macbaren, it will affect prices/availability. Plus many blends are sold to kopp and simply tinned by them.

 

[Hutch Piper]

I’d love to hear from some of the big B&M’s about their situation after these closures, etc. Country Squire, Boswell’s, and LJ Peretti have great alternatives to these tobaccos so long as they weren’t reliant on Sutliff for their blending materials…

Jon David Cole of the Country Squire was just interviewed on the latest Pipes Magazine Radio Show podcast. He addressed Sutliff. While he acknowledged things will change, he was optimistic as be wasn’t solely reliant on Sutliff. He made a conscious decision to diversify his suppliers. Some blends will have to change and others may be retired. But he’s a blender, loves his craft, and things will go on.

 

[sablebrush52]

Yes but as said by the German sales rep of macbaren, it will affect prices/availability. Plus many blends are sold to kopp and simply tinned by them.

This pretty much sounds like business a usual. STG is merely getting rid of duplication and less profitable blends. They got this opportunity because MB's owners wanted out. That's different from killing off their own business of making blends for other companies.
As for prices? They could go WAY up if the US adopts a tariff economy. For sure, nothing is going down.

 

[dburrows]

That’s because this list is all they’re keeping. ALL OF IT. If it’s made by Sutliff or MacBaren and isn’t on this list then it’s gone.

I don't think this is the case. They specifically say in the letter that they looked at the portfolios of the 2 companies. The manufacturing of other companies products are likely under contractual agreements. They will most definitely have to move manufacturing but they can't just stop manufacturing what they've agreed to. What they decide to do as those agreements come to term is anybody's guess.

 

[gcm]

This pretty much sounds like business a usual. STG is merely getting rid of duplication and less profitable blends. They got this opportunity because MB's owners wanted out. That's different from killing off their own business of making blends for other companies.
As for prices? They could go WAY up if the US adopts a tariff economy. For sure, nothing is going down.

From that standpoint you're right. Thanks for cooling my nerves

 

[lazar]

Why would this announcement affect MacBaren making these under contract to K&K? Presumably STG took on the responsibility to meet contractual agreements when they bought MB. It's more likely will be that STG will offer to complete the contract, for however long it goes. It's the name on the label that counts, however meaningless in reality.

But SPC. Isn't that a similar situation?

 

[Strange Quark]

Don’t forget Newminster and Kramer’s. McB produces Newminster, Sutliff produces Kramer’s.

The Newminster line was a bizarre effort between STG and MacB. Most of those blends are based on preexisting STG blends(Peter Stockebye) but produced by MacB. I never could make sense of this. I think Kramer's is C&D.

 

[sardonicus87]

Well if I am going to be honest. I was wondering for years how so many blends could be available to such a small selection of people.

Something I wanted to say in the original Leonard thread that I typed out but the thread was locked before I could hit send...

There's this thing I am into, and there's a "community" around it. It's a niche thing generally speaking, and the area I live is fairly rural. Sure, I live in a small city, but for at least 80-100 miles around in any direction, it's all rural as hell.

There's a meet up group and it goes in cycles. Usually one starts and there's a monthly attendance of 20-30 people. It doesn't take long, usually within a year and a half, people want more specialized sub-groups, so they start making more groups that are more tightly-focused and before you know it, you have several of them. People have limited time, they're not going to go to all the meetups, so they pick the ones they want to go to (usually 1 or 2), and then each group has 2-3 people per meetup, which is unsustainable, and then all the groups die, including the original broad-category group, nobody wants to consolidate. After a year or two of no group existing, someone decides to start a new one and the process repeats.

People keep trying to bury their heads in the sand about pipe tobacco. Pipe tobacco only exists because the broader tobacco market still exists. There aren't enough pipe smokers to sustain the tobacco industry at cost-effective scales. Most tobacco is grown for cigarettes, we just get to pinch some off for us. If cigarettes die, all tobacco goes with it (pipe, snuff, dip/chew, etc). And if cigarettes die, the vast majority will just quit rather than swap to a different thing, so it's not like you can hope that killing one would make the other more popular.

We're like that, the pipe community. There's not enough of us, and likely never going to be enough of us, to sustain all that choice in a shrinking market (regardless of what anyone claims, worldwide tobacco use of any kind is still down continuing to decrease in a downward trend, regardless of any short-term upticks or growth in any individual sector).

The answer of course is, consolidate with less options or die... because the alternative is massively increased prices (there's a minimum overhead to production, and there's also lower margins because relative production costs are higher when production is lower due to bulk pricing, deal negotiating power, etc).

This is the reality in which we live. Relative to the rest of the tobacco market, we're a drop in the bucket and have no real power to sway anything. We have so much choice because of passionate people, but passion doesn't pay the light bills.

Just look at the story of Mac Baren in this... they only existed because of passionate people willing to put in hard work and not get rich (as long as they could run sustainably). The reason it's gone is because there were no more passionate individuals who would take over the generational legacy company, so it sold to the only bidder. This is very much an industry where there's no middle-ground: you either have to have a passion for it and be small, or have no passion and be huge and own everything.

 

[sablebrush52]

But SPC. Isn't that a similar situation?

Possibly. It would depend on the conditions of that contract.

 

[HawkeyeLinus]

You trust them not to mess w the Peterson blends in the future and cut?

I meant to say: I am going to support C&D from now on, this hurt. I smoked Plumcake for 40 years and Dunhill for 20 until it's death

LOL, hard for me to see that as the translation of "get rid of all the Peterson blends except University Flake". Smoke what you like, support all blenders even if you don't use their product! Come on Andy, let's go! Or as Ted Lasso would say, "I appreciate you man."

 

[gord]

If they’re not already made in the Assens widget shop, absolutely not.

My own Widget Shop discovered Smoker's Pride Classic Blend about 6 months ago. 75% Burley and available in Canada for 70 bucks a 12 ounce bag. So, I got 2 pounds of the stuff. It'll probably last me until I croak.

Not a bad smoke, and it's a great mixer. As an example, take 7 parts of it, and 1 part Latakia, and you got a pretty serviceable Budget English. Welcome to Canada, eh?

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

I don't think this is the case. They specifically say in the letter that they looked at the portfolios of the 2 companies. The manufacturing of other companies products are likely under contractual agreements. They will most definitely have to move manufacturing but they can't just stop manufacturing what they've agreed to. What they decide to do as those agreements come to term is anybody's guess.

SPC is already looking for a new supplier. Every component of their blends is being cut basically. Those blends already cost more than many, and the added costs of production moving overseas is basically a non-starter for SPC. I mean, hope springs eternal, but if there’s SPC blends you love, buy them now.

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

Buy now.

 

[telescopes]

I am confused at the latent outrage. This news was relayed to us several months ago. This is just confirmation of what was already confirmed. With all the Sutliff hate and MacBaren Hate that went on here for years, why the sudden occurrence of love. As someone who bought a lot of Sutliff blends and enjoyed them, I conditioned myself to rethink what I'll be getting in the future. Where there is a will, there is a way, and I am confident some new and exciting blends will appear on the market soon enough.

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

I am confused at the latent outrage. This news was relayed to us several months ago. This is just confirmation of what was already confirmed. With all the Sutliff hate and MacBaren Hate that went on here for years, why the sudden occurrence of love. As someone who bought a lot of Sutliff blends and enjoyed them, I conditioned myself to rethink what I'll be getting in the future. Where there is a will, there is a way, and I am confident some new and exciting blends will appear on the market soon enough.

I’m not confused. I believe it was just hope until confirmation. I mean, look at the bargaining about SPC and hoping contracts will save things. We got the list. We now know what is coming for certain. These are the stages of grief. Even for the smokers unaffected. Because it’s a good reminder that even if your favorite isn’t from Sutliff or Mac Baren, your favorite can be gone in a heartbeat. Especially now that most blends are held by the very people making the current decisions.

 

[First Sealord]

When I read the communicae from Sutliff this morning, my first response, and this will not be popular, was to find it darkly funny, if not exactly hilarious.

The "survivors" of this Viking raid are supposed to represent the most profitable blends in the MB and Sutliff portfolios and if true, confirm the statement that aromatics are by far the largest amount of sales. STD STG is sparing the goopiest of Sutliff goopers for you to buy in bulk, as well as eliminating any duplication of their Lane offerings.

The loss of the Sutliff match blends is a shame, but not unexpected, given STD's STG's metric for survival.

Not being immune to the financial benefits of branding they are retaining St Bruno, Capstan, and Three Nuns, maybe STG can improve them as they could scarcely be made worse than what MB did to them in the last couple of years.

I was never much of a Mac Baren fan and those blends that I liked, such as Modern Virginia, Vintage Syrian, and Acadien Perique, Mac Baren had discontinued as their quality dropped, so I won't miss Mac Baren at all. All that said, my sympathies to those who continued to enjoy their offerings.

The loss of livlihoods for those caught up in all of this corporate pooh is unfortunate and I hope that some sort of compensation is being provided. We're not talking hundreds of jobs here, more like dozens, but that doesn't make it any easier for those affected.

Anyway, there it is. You have other options and plenty of them. Time to move on and go exploring.

Mac Baren employed 125 people at their factory.

 

[HammerandPipe]

Something I wanted to say in the original Leonard thread that I typed out but the thread was locked before I could hit send...

There's this thing I am into, and there's a "community" around it. It's a niche thing generally speaking, and the area I live is fairly rural. Sure, I live in a small city, but for at least 80-100 miles around in any direction, it's all rural as hell.

There's a meet up group and it goes in cycles. Usually one starts and there's a monthly attendance of 20-30 people. It doesn't take long, usually within a year and a half, people want more specialized sub-groups, so they start making more groups that are more tightly-focused and before you know it, you have several of them. People have limited time, they're not going to go to all the meetups, so they pick the ones they want to go to (usually 1 or 2), and then each group has 2-3 people per meetup, which is unsustainable, and then all the groups die, including the original broad-category group, nobody wants to consolidate. After a year or two of no group existing, someone decides to start a new one and the process repeats.

People keep trying to bury their heads in the sand about pipe tobacco. Pipe tobacco only exists because the broader tobacco market still exists. There aren't enough pipe smokers to sustain the tobacco industry at cost-effective scales. Most tobacco is grown for cigarettes, we just get to pinch some off for us. If cigarettes die, all tobacco goes with it (pipe, snuff, dip/chew, etc). And if cigarettes die, the vast majority will just quit rather than swap to a different thing, so it's not like you can hope that killing one would make the other more popular.

We're like that, the pipe community. There's not enough of us, and likely never going to be enough of us, to sustain all that choice in a shrinking market (regardless of what anyone claims, worldwide tobacco use of any kind is still down continuing to decrease in a downward trend, regardless of any short-term upticks or growth in any individual sector).

The answer of course is, consolidate with less options or die... because the alternative is massively increased prices (there's a minimum overhead to production, and there's also lower margins because relative production costs are higher when production is lower due to bulk pricing, deal negotiating power, etc).

This is the reality in which we live. Relative to the rest of the tobacco market, we're a drop in the bucket and have no real power to sway anything. We have so much choice because of passionate people, but passion doesn't pay the light bills.

Just look at the story of Mac Baren in this... they only existed because of passionate people willing to put in hard work and not get rich (as long as they could run sustainably). The reason it's gone is because there were no more passionate individuals who would take over the generational legacy company, so it sold to the only bidder. This is very much an industry where there's no middle-ground: you either have to have a passion for it and be small, or have no passion and be huge and own everything.

This is a solid post that gave me a lot to think about. I’m not very business-savvy or particularly knowledgeable in general, but I am tired of seeing the decline and death of things I enjoy or have enjoyed.

You make many logical points, though. I just wish I had the extra money to stock up before the possibility of pipe tobacco extinction happens in my lifetime.

 

[Beers 'N Briars]

Mac Baren employed 125 people at their factory.

Yeah, between MacBaren, Sutliff, tobaccopipes.com, and Cup o’ Joes, we are talking about hundreds of people.

 

[dburrows]

....
Buy now.

Yikes! I guess that clarifies it. Thank you.

 

[sardonicus87]

I am confused at the latent outrage. This news was relayed to us several months ago. This is just confirmation of what was already confirmed. With all the Sutliff hate and MacBaren Hate that went on here for years, why the sudden occurrence of love. As someone who bought a lot of Sutliff blends and enjoyed them, I conditioned myself to rethink what I'll be getting in the future. Where there is a will, there is a way, and I am confident some new and exciting blends will appear on the market soon enough.

To be honest, and I haven't tried a ton of Sutliff or Mac Baren blends, I never personally understood all the hate they got. I think the only Mac Baren blend I didn't like was HH Balkan (which side-note, is one of the only blends to consistently give me tongue bite, and no other MB I have smoked has bit me, so I never understood the Mac Bite thing either), and the only Sutliff blend I didn't like was one of the Cringle Flakes, 2022 maybe? But I'm not big on VA/per blends (it's actually my least favorite subgenre of VAs). And this is only considering blends that are Sutliff or Mac Baren blends, not considering private label blends produced by them.

I really liked what Sutliff did for example, with Barrel Aged No 5 Rustica or whatever it was called (barrel aged series Rustica). And I've long been a fan of Sutliff's Crumble Kake English No. 1. I never really see anyone talk about that one. And I know a lot of people love PS LNF, but I much prefer MB's Navy Flake to the PS LNF as far as staple navy flakes are concerned.

Regardless, most my least favorite things I have tried have come primarily from C&D (Pegasus isn't bad but stupid overrated, but hated Blockade Runner and the other one similar to that, didn't care too much for Haunted Bookshop), but C&D has also produced more of my favorites than any other brand (OJK, Steamworks, Sun Bear...). However, when you have 200+ blends on your label vs 5-10 (again, not counting private label blends produced by X), that makes sense. But by no means did I find anything from Sutliff or MB to be bad, even if they weren't necessarily my highest most favorites, they were good.

But so many people too look at things from a perspective of "if it's not love, it's trash", no middle-ground... if it's not great, it's bad, nothing can just be a middle-of-the-road decent thing. Hell, that's not surprising in the least, look at reviews of any product and see the inverted bell curve of ratings... all 5's and 1's, very few 2-4's.