JFK (1991 movie)

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

Watch for Updates Twice a Week

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

Status
Not open for further replies.

pylorns

Lifer
Aug 20, 2013
2,201
641
Austin, Texas
www.thepipetool.com
When you go to site of the shooting in Dallas in Delley Plaza - and you stand at that wood fence - it feels pretty eery. Then you go up in the museum and look down from where Oswald "supposely" was. After walking the whole area in person, I am personally convinced there was more than one shooter, and behind the fence had to have been one of them.

 

tslex

Lifer
Jun 23, 2011
1,482
15
I'm a gun guy. I look at it mostly as a gun guy. And, as a gun guy, I have to say that the official story just doesn't stand.
Stephen Hunter, another gun guy, had some fun speculating in a gun guy kinda way in "The Third Bullet."

 

saint007

Part of the Furniture Now
Dec 22, 2013
630
0
Having worked on Harry Connick Sr's run against NOLA DA Jim Garrison in 1972, this topic was often discussed.
The CIA and the Mob developed a relationship during WW2. When JFK decided not to back the insurgents at The Bay Of Pigs, the assassination was put into motion.
The CIA owed the Mob and the Mob wanted Cuba back. The CIA told them it would happen. When it didn't, the green light was on for both the CIA and Mob. Don't forget that the Mob was pissed at younger brother Bobby's persecution of organized crime.
There was at least one other shooter that was probably hidden in the elevated street drain in the curve of the road. The position gives a clear shot picture to the front of JFK's head. In the disorganized mayhem the followed the shooting, the second shooter escaped. That Sunday, Ruby was sent to silence Oswald.
BTW, Connick Sr served as NOLA DA from the early 70's through most of the 90's.

 

JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
64,382
643,536
While most conspiracy theories are based on conjecture, Brad's point about the rifle is compelling. Also, I'm supposed to believe Oswald fired three shots as fast as he did with a bolt action, cheap mail order rifle, wipe his prints off, hide the gun, run from one end of the 6th floor to the other, down four flights of steps, and have a Coke in his hand within 90 seconds after the final shot - without being winded - when he was spotted by employees and a police officer. Also, on film you see Billy Ray Newman throw his kid on the ground and cover him when the shots were fired. This man was a fighting war veteran of WW2 and Korea, and he said he heard the head shot fired from behind him - he was on the grassy knoll - and heard the shot whiz over his head. A man with that much war experience carries a great deal of weight with me because he knows where shots are coming from.
Whatever conspiracy there may have been, it was a small one, unlike what the JFK movie claims. I think a lot of people screwed up and while covering their rear ends, end up looking like they were part of something they weren't. Oswald had to be involved, though. I don't believe Jack Ruby was. The timing of his shooting Oswald doesn't make sense from the view point of conspiracy if you look at all his movements and timing of them that day.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
12,281
18,262
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Fascinating! Totally unsupported by any evidence, just what ifs and I can't so how could Oswald. What if he just got lucky? Some consider it a cold case and others believe it "cased closed" unless new evidence, not speculation, hard evidence is located. I want hard, tangible evidence. Anything else is speculation at best, fantasy at the worst or simply pandering to the conspiracy crowd for the moneys generated. Proof! Not speculation!
Bring me proof and I'll reconsider my position. Not that what I believe is particularly important in the grand scheme of things.
Re: Oswald vs Ruby. Even at its most inept the Mob wouldn't perform so clumsily. The CIA? Maybe.
Neither the CIA nor the mob would select such a method to assassinate a president. Not when there are so many quieter, more sophisticated methods of accomplishing the same goal. It's too complicated, too fraught with complications and too farcical.
Nope, it was pretty much the usual, dull, assassination that the US has come to expect now and then. It's boring, unexciting and doesn't not appeal to many people.

 

elbert

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 10, 2015
604
29
To clarify, JimInks, you think Oswald fired two shots but not three? Would a third shot cut into his 90 second window that much?
Ah, well. Something for us all to ponder. I still think the most interesting assassination attempt was the one on Teddy Roosevelt in 1912. Bull Moose, indeed!

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,581
Warren your not gonna get any hard evidence. The most compeling evidence is Robert Kennedy asking Johnson over the phone " Why did you kill my brother?". Oswald didnt do it by himself, physics proves that. Anything else is speculation. Hell, look at Hillary and Bengahzi. A General was fired for reveiling that there was a stand down order given. Yet, the Praetorian media refuses to cover these facts. So, the likelyhood of there being a release of a Conspiritorial coverup, involving the Government ain't happening. Speculate away.

 

elbert

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 10, 2015
604
29
A General was fired for reveiling that there was a stand down order given.
The General in question (General Carter Ham) testified in June of 2013 before the House Armed Services Committee that there was no stand-down order.

 

perdurabo

Lifer
Jun 3, 2015
3,305
1,581
Case In Point Elbert. The General was relieved of duty. Fishy. Those House Armed Servies Committee meetings were "closed door". Once the little people start to talk, the puzzle is easy to place back together. Praetorian Gaurd Citizenry is just as bad, to comcerned about the Latest football scores, than the tyranny that grows beneath their nose.

 

JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
64,382
643,536
Elbert: three shots were fired from the TSBD. I think Oswald fired them, but I can't prove it. And there's eye witness evidence that he may not have been on the 6th floor at that time. One person saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room at 12:20 and a secretary placed him there at 12:25. The shooting was at 12:35, so that is cutting it very close.
Warren: it's all speculation no matter what theory one uses. There's no hard evidence that Oswald was the man Howard Brennan saw fire from the 6th floor window. We can't definitively place Oswald there with hard evidence either. There's better evidence to support the theory that Oswald killed officer Tippett. Even an average D.A. could get a guilty verdict on that one.
The entire problem is that Americans have a right to know who killed our president, and we can't absolutely prove it due to the circumstances of the time, so we have to figure it out through a morass of conflicting ideas, theories, and evidence. The case was mishandled by the police and the feds. So, we are left in the frustrating position of not knowing for an absolute fact what happened, who did what, etc. There's no satisfactory resolution or closure unless you've just picked a theory and are convinced of it.

 

elbert

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 10, 2015
604
29
Thank you for clarifying, Jim. I just wasn't sure which part you objected to.
As for Benghazi, I was only correcting the claim that Carter Ham admitted to a stand-down order--there certainly could have been one, but he's not admitting anything about it. He's also 63, so his relief from duty could plausibly be a simple planned retirement. As has been said, we'll never know.
I do believe that skepticism is a healthy approach to any "official" story--but it does happen from time to time that the official story is the most accurate to the facts.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
12,281
18,262
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Jiminks: You raise some reasonable points. Brennan's "eye witness" statement however, is uncontested to my knowledge. As such, unless properly disputed, it is a fact. Now my mind may fail me a bit as I lost interest in the case many years ago, but was not the weapon tied conclusively to Oswald?
Admittedly the "parafin" tests show no cheek residue while showing positive with Oswald's hands. The discrepancy can be easily explained away or can be used to advantage by a good attorney to discredit the prosecution.
I'm just in the position of accepting the few known facts, and wishing Congress had never held the hearings which so muddied the entire process. Agenda driven politicians are never going to do anything other than pander for votes. Then the media always has to step in and explain the explanation which usually leads to even more confusion for the public.
Also, not being personally involved in the investigation and relying only on media reports, assorted books and that Warren report I am certainly not qualified to comment on the quality or professionalism of any involved agency. Oswald's assassination was obviously the result, in hindsight, of the inability of the responsible people not being in possession of the ability to clearly see the future.

 

JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
64,382
643,536
Warren: the problem with Brennan's testimony is that his original description doesn't quite fit Oswald in age and size: "“I could see the large red brick building across the street from where I was sitting. I take this building across the street to be about 7 stories anyway in the east end of the building and the second row of windows from the top I saw a man in this window. I had seen him before the President’s car arrived. He was just sitting up there looking down apparantly [sic] waiting for the same thing I was to see the President. I did not notice anything unusual about this man. He was a white man in his early 30’s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definately [sic] not a suit. I proceeded to watch the President’s car … I heard what I thought was a back fire … I looked up at the building. I then saw this man I have described in the window and he was taking aim with a high powered rifle. I could see all of the barrel of the gun. I do not know if it had a scope on it or not. I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry. I could see this man from about his belt up. There was nothing unusual about him at all in appearance. I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again.""
After the Tippit shooting, a description of Oswald came out, it was noticed that the description of the man who shot the police officer was very similar to the description given after the president was shot. After the shooting Oswald fled and was later captured in a nearby movie theater. Later the same evening Brennan identified Oswald in a police lineup as the person who most closely resembled the man in the window, but Brennan said he was unable to make a positive identification. A few hours prior to seeing the line-up, Brennan had observed a picture of Oswald on television. Brennan attributed this to part of the reason he felt he could not make a positive identification, he did not want the image to have impacted his decision. On December 17, 1963, he told the FBI that he was sure that Oswald was the rifleman he had seen in the window.
Several months later, he also testified to the Warren Commission. During the extensive questioning, Brennan stated that at the time of the lineup, he believed the assassination was part of a conspiracy, and he was afraid for the safety of himself and his family. Because Brennan declined to make a positive identification in the police lineup, the commission regarded Brennan's subsequent testimony (that he sincerely believed he saw Oswald), as probative but not conclusive evidence that Oswald was the gunman in the sixth-floor window.
There's two possibilities beside what he stated: Brennan may have been influenced by later reports, or his memory and initial impressions were correct. I lean toward the latter, but cannot totally dismiss the former.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
12,281
18,262
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
I wasn't a judge, I was a cop. I really have no problem with Brennan's recollections, actions or reactions. Pretty standard stuff in my experience. I just make the decision on the street, I don't try them. My position is that available evidence, hard and circumstantial points at Oswald. We were denied a trial and are left with speculation. And speculation is all that we will ever have, unfortunately. No amount of new information will ever satisfy the theorists. There's a big audience out there for the conspiracy books, movies and rumors. An audience with a voracious appetite, willing to spend moneys to feed it who will, most likely, never be satisfied. Some do not want to be satisfied.

 
Apr 26, 2012
3,585
8,062
Washington State
I watched that movie in the theaters when it came out. Very good movie and some interesting thoughts on the assassination. My guess is that the Government (CIA/FBI) had him killed, because they were afraid of him and what he would do during his presidency. The Government was afraid of the Civil Rights movement and Kennedy was beloved by African-Americans. In addition to that he was Catholic, and the Government was afraid that he may turn the country towards Catholicism instead of being prominently Christian. Just theories, but the Government definitely had their hands in this. Lee Harvey Oswald was not the only shooter as I believe their were two shooters.

 

JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
64,382
643,536
Warren: I forgot to answer your other question. Yes, the mail order Carcano was definitely purchased by Oswald using the name "Alek Hidel". And yes, we'll never know the entire truth, which is why this subject haunts us to this day. It's too bad the Warren Commission hearings weren't open to the public. Today, I think they would be.

 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
12,281
18,262
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
Thank you sir! My memory may not be as weak as I sometimes fear it is.
Here we have a major differing of opinion. A public hearing would have bored some, excited others and generated great theater. The very public assassination of a prominent figure will always generate "conspiracy theories" and speculation. Books are still being written purporting to provide new insight to Lincoln's killing. Michael Collins' death is debated endlessly. Gandhi's and Martin Luther King's killings all seem straight forward, yet many are not satisfied with the conclusions drawn by authorities and authors.
It's the nature of the beast. Assassinations can make for compelling reading. This is especially true where there are questions, real or imagined. If Oswald had sat up and given the ever esteemed "deathbed confession" a segment of society would have elected to not believe it. To some Johnson will ever be the villain. Or the mob. Or the CIA. Possibly the quiet, little girl who lives down the lane was the shooter on the knoll. If so, it would be immediately posited that she was Kennedy's bastard child, mother Marilyn Monroe. Perhaps it was mob payback for some real or imagined wrong done them by Joseph Kennedy when he was in the illicit liquor business.
If the mob and the CIA had readily admitted involvement some would not be satisfied.
If the motive was Kennedy's position on Civil Rights why wasn't Eisenhower assassinated? He sent Federal troops to insure civil rights. Truman made integration a fact in the military to the discomfort of many. And, just for clarification I believe the Catholic Church is acknowledged as the first Christian religion. The last thing an investigation needs is personal bias as a driving force. Personal biases lead to misdirection as the investigator is now searching for evidence to support a preconceived conclusion.
Motive is over rated with regard to crime. It helps to find a motive as such can focus an investigation but, it certainly isn't necessary for a conviction. Motives are often lacking, or at least an understandable motives, as a badly wired brain doesn't see the world as most do. Better to try and understand the killer's logic, no matter how convoluted or warped.
People read about a dismembered corpse found in a trunk and wonder what kind of mind could do something so lurid? Perhaps it was the only way the body would fit in the trunk. Very logical!
I lost interest in the assassination when I was satisfied with my conclusions. But, it is interesting to review now and then. New facts maybe found in the future. I seriously doubt it. If they are, I can certainly reevaluate my conclusions. Until then it is all supposition and opinion. Certainly fodder for lively debate which is always fun.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.