Is Jarring a One-Time Thing?

[pruss]

I thought you had some factual, hard core evidence to support what you were saying. Your initial post sounded that way. Reality turned out to be somewhat different.

You do realize that asking for a longitudinal survey of tin purchases on a hobbyist forum is a bit of a stretch right?

At best you’re going to get anecdotal feedback which will or won’t be supported by others. Having heard that feedback you get to choose what you want to do with it.

Questioning the validity or integrity of the poster and their data probably isn’t the most community centric choice, however.

Sable says he has experienced rusty tins with St. Bruno. So I would jar them. Truth be told, I jar most of my tins, I’ve seen seals fail too many times.

 

[UncleRasta]

Thanks All for your sage advice. I would most likely have just stored tins without opening as it appears the least intrusive (lazy?) option, except that I saw a few references to tin rust on youtube, and probably on this forum as well. I am not yet buying tobacco in any significant quantities since I'm still discovering my tastes, but it made me wonder how commonplace tin rust is, and whether adding to any cellar I may develop, would entail a new jar for every purchase.

 

[UncleRasta]

There are two forms (maybe more) of aging...
The Theory Behind Aging Tobaccco :: General Pipe Smoking Discussion - http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/threads/the-theory-behind-aging-tobaccco.20146/

Well, that was one heck of a thread. I followed the link and went straight down a rabbit hole. It got a tad testy at times and there was definitely more than one point of view, but highly informative nevertheless. I recognized a few names from folk that are still posting today, but many of the others seemed to have joined the forum, and been last seen on the forum, on the day of the thread, or not long after. Thanks for the link. There is gold buried deep in this forum I see.

 

[sablebrush52]

I assume you mean corrode from the inside?

Yes, corrode from the inside. About a year ago, I posted a thread about how many of the old Pease tins had corroded from the inside, along with pictures. I got responses from others who discovered that their prized tins were compromised.
And as I've shared here, Greg Pease has changed his mind about long term aging in the tin due to many disappointments in his own cellar, and now suggests jarring tobacco immediately and letting it age in the jar.

 

[sablebrush52]

I thought you had some factual, hard core evidence to support what you were saying. Your initial post sounded that way. Reality turned out to be somewhat different.

A year ago I posted a thread on how the old Pease tins had corroded from the inside out, with pictures.
A few months ago I had posted about how Greg Pease had changed his mind on long term cellaring, and that's a guy with more experience than you, me and a whole lot of people here put together.
St Bruno isn't the only blend that's not a good candidate for long term aging.
But if you want a statistical analysis to put your mind at ease, fund one.
All any of us can do is offer our personal experiences.
A couple of years back I began questioning square and rectangular tins as a reliable means for long term storage. I suggested a simple experiment. Place a bunch of tins of Virginia in a tupperware container and seal the top. Place a bunch of English/Oriental/ Balkan blends in a different Tupperware container and seal the top. Wait a few weeks and pop the top and take a sniff. You'll be smelling Virginia from the Virginia container and Latakia/Orientals from the Latakia/Oriental container. Those tins don't hold a seal.
And I suggested putting them into Mylar, which you did, and which I did. But that's not a 100% guarantee. Some blends will simply rot the tins from the inside out, inside the Mylar.
Perhaps that's why St Bruno used to come in a plastic tin.
And by the way, I jarred all of the Haddo's I bought in 2013 and I'm glad that I did. Those lined 8 and 16oz tins were starting to develop rust at the soldering joint, which wasn't lined.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Well, that was one heck of a thread. I followed the link and went straight down a rabbit hole. It got a tad testy at times and there was definitely more than one point of view, but highly informative nevertheless. I recognized a few names from folk that are still posting today, but many of the others seemed to have joined the forum, and been last seen on the forum, on the day of the thread, or not long after. Thanks for the link. There is gold buried deep in this forum I see.

The point is that there are dozens and dozens of threads like that. I was shooting for explanations of types of aging. But, as you can see, there is no one prevailing "best practices" on cellaring... or anything as far as pipes are concerned. Search the forums for best way to pack, light, smoke, tamp, or even which tobaccos are best... and everyone is different. Hundreds of different ways to approach anything.

I do what I do with my cellar, because I don't have the same fears as some, and maybe my fears are a little different from others. As far as, "Does opening a tin do any damage?" It does, but do the damages outweigh the fears and justify the benefits? I argue, based on my practices and understandings, that the damages do outweigh the benefits. Others, have their reasons for doing what they do.

You'll just have to weigh the points of argument, and decide for yourself. Like lighting your bowl or even packing it, lots of different perspectives, and in time you will settle in on what's best for you and your investment.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Greg Pease was supposedly an expert 2 or 3 years ago with what he has said about these subjects. Then, he did a 180 on a number of things he had previously said. So which Greg Pease is the expert? Another thing Greg Pease discussed related to interrupting the aging process by opening the storage medium. I've never seen the part where he said it was okay if that was done inside of 2 years. Perhaps it is. Perhaps it isn't.

I expect to lose some tins over time, especially tins aged more than 10 years. However, I've opened enough aged tins without having a problem to date to believe it is at an acceptable risk level. At this very moment, I'm smoking through an old style rectangular tin of Orlik Golden Sliced from 10-5-2006. 13 years old. It is superb. The tobacco still had a fresh and reasonable moisture level and the inside of the tin is pristine. I am highly suspicious the majority of problems with older tins is how they were stored, not with the tins themselves.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I am highly suspicious the majority of problems with older tins is how they were stored, not with the tins themselves.

This is why I keep mine stored in a room that never strays beyond 72-75ish F at any time. Even if a blend is highly acidic, keeping the temperature cool will slow down the effects of acids, just as heating them up will accelerate the effects.

That all said, being over 50, I don't expect to be smoking, nor alive in 20 years. So, I am not worried much about the long-term affects on the tins.

 

[sablebrush52]

Greg Pease was supposedly an expert 2 or 3 years ago with what he has said about these subjects. Then, he did a 180 on a number of things he had previously said. So which Greg Pease is the expert?

I always find it curious when someone advances an argument that changes in thought based on new data are a bad thing. Do you still visit your barber to have yourself bled in order to release the evil humours?
Greg hasn't changed his position on the benefits of long undisturbed aging, just on the best way to go about it. If that's a problem for you, that's a problem for you.
But don't kid yourself that you have anything like the level or length of experience, knowledge, or accomplishment with tobaccos that he has, having been making highly acclaimed blends and making a very successful living doing that for decades. And he's been cellaring for decades. How long have you been doing this?
If I needed information on building and construction I'd turn to you. That's where you have legitimate expertise. I don't dismiss experience and expertise because I find it inconvenient.

 

[gervais]

I buy alot of my tobacco in bulk, so jarring is the only option in that scenario. I've also let tobacco dry out a little before the permanent sealing inside an aging jar. If a tobacco feels to moist I'll put it in a jar with a hygrometer inside. If the relative humidity is anywhere above 70% it gets left out to dry a bit. I have a fear of mold, and it thrives in moist environments. To each their own

 

[gervais]

I buy alot of my tobacco in bulk, so jarring is the only option in that scenario. I've also let tobacco dry out a little before the permanent sealing inside an aging jar. If a tobacco feels to moist I'll put it in a jar with a hygrometer inside. If the relative humidity is anywhere above 70% it gets left out to dry a bit. I have a fear of mold, and it thrives in moist environments. To each their own

To add to this. Curing and aging process will still happen with a moisture level of above 55% in the jar/vessel, from my understanding. So I'd rather be safe than sorry and dry it out slightly before long term storage.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I always find it curious when someone advances an argument that changes in thought based on new data are a bad thing. Do you still visit your barber to have yourself bled in order to release the evil humours?
Greg hasn't changed his position on the benefits of long undisturbed aging, just on the best way to go about it. If that's a problem for you, that's a problem for you.
But don't kid yourself that you have anything like the level or length of experience, knowledge, or accomplishment with tobaccos that he has, having been making highly acclaimed blends and making a very successful living doing that for decades. And he's been cellaring for decades. How long have you been doing this?
If I needed information on building and construction I'd turn to you. That's where you have legitimate expertise. I don't dismiss experience and expertise because I find it inconvenient.

Where did I say or even imply my experience matches Greg Pease? However, Greg's core expertise is in blending. I trust what I see and experience more than anything else. I've smoked a pipe off and on for over 40 years. And elapsed time isn't the only measure of experience. What experience does smoking 1 or 2 bowls per week over a 30 year period really bring you vs smoking 5 to 7 bowls per day? I've smoked more in the past 2 years than many pipe smokers smoke in a lifetime.

You made a statement I didn't and don't agree with. If that's a problem for you, it's your problem, not mine.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I always find it curious when someone advances an argument that changes in thought based on new data are a bad thing. Do you still visit your barber to have yourself bled in order to release the evil humours?

I think he did dismiss Greg in the very first part of his post, but he then he poses a statement that should have been the most pertinent part... and for debate/discussion should have been a question.

I've never seen the part where he said it was okay if that was done inside of 2 years. Perhaps it is. Perhaps it isn't.

Does he suggest that we jar tobaccos that already have some age on them in the tin? And, if so, does the amount of years matter?

All that said, I am not going to change what I do, because I have yet to see the things others fear.

Maybe Greg having dealt with a tin problem in his own product for that short period of time has him promoting jarring, to offset customer complaints/fears about his product? Just a question. Because I just don't see the numbers of people reporting failed tins. But hey, if people want to jar up their tins, fine with me. My stocks in Mason Ball will only go up. But, I think that at times during discussions like this we tend to promote our own practices as if we have to convince someone that global warming is real or that our way of seeing the world is the only way. And, there is a lot more to weigh in on the scales of what one chooses to do, a lot more factors.

I don't contest Sable on any of his practices. I don't even contest people putting tobacco in bags. I will offer my own ideas, and they can be taken for what they are worth. Jars are great, but not infallible, nor are bags, nor tins. There is no 100% perfect way to approach this.

Jars can corrode just like a tin. They also can loose their seal in fluctuating temperatures and pressure. The piece of paper that now comes on the boxes of Mason Ball jars states that the company only recommends them for a limited time. All it takes is one tiny piece of tobacco to come between the seal and the jar to ruin it.

Bags, even the best mylar can break down at points where the bag folds or is creased with the expansion of the thing bagged. The seal can fail. A tobacco beetle can pass right through it like nothing is protecting it.

Tins, as mentioned above, have their issues.

Which is worse, which is better? It is all in what you want? how long you plan to store? possibility you may resale? size and space you have to cellar? and a myriad of other factors that might be personal to your needs.

No one person or expert has the one perfect solution for everyone.

 

[jpmcwjr]

Having read this whole thread, and others previously, I am leaning towards the principle of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn".

Opening a tin or jar of somewhat aged tobacco will change the aging process. For the better, or worse, or no discernible change. Overall, I'd be inclined to let sleeping tins and jars alone, until/unless/as you fancy a bowl from them.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I think he did dismiss Greg in the very first part of his post, but he then he poses a statement that should have been the most pertinent part... and for debate/discussion should have been a question.

Does he suggest that we jar tobaccos that already have some age on them in the tin? And, if so, does the amount of years matter?

All that said, I am not going to change what I do, because I have yet to see the things others fear.

Maybe Greg having dealt with a tin problem in his own product for that short period of time has him promoting jarring, to offset customer complaints/fears about his product? Just a question. Because I just don't see the numbers of people reporting failed tins. But hey, if people want to jar up their tins, fine with me. My stocks in Mason Ball will only go up. But, I think that at times during discussions like this we tend to promote our own practices as if we have to convince someone that global warming is real or that our way of seeing the world is the only way. And, there is a lot more to weigh in on the scales of what one chooses to do, a lot more factors.

I don't contest Sable on any of his practices. I don't even contest people putting tobacco in bags. I will offer my own ideas, and they can be taken for what they are worth. Jars are great, but not infallible, nor are bags, nor tins. There is no 100% perfect way to approach this.

Jars can corrode just like a tin. They also can loose their seal in fluctuating temperatures and pressure. The piece of paper that now comes on the boxes of Mason Ball jars states that the company only recommends them for a limited time. All it takes is one tiny piece of tobacco to come between the seal and the jar to ruin it.

Bags, even the best mylar can break down at points where the bag folds or is creased with the expansion of the thing bagged. The seal can fail. A tobacco beetle can pass right through it like nothing is protecting it.

Tins, as mentioned above, have their issues.

Which is worse, which is better? It is all in what you want? how long you plan to store? possibility you may resale? size and space you have to cellar? and a myriad of other factors that might be personal to your needs.

No one person or expert has the one perfect solution for everyone.

Multiple good points. There is no perfect strategy. If you use enough Mason Jars, you will lose some. If you use enough mylar, you're going to lose some. Same with tins. I strongly believe you can minimize these losses, regardless of the storage medium you use, by storing in a stable environment (temp and humidity) and through careful and minimal handling.

 

[sablebrush52]

Does he suggest that we jar tobaccos that already have some age on them in the tin? And, if so, does the amount of years matter?

In the letter he sent to Mike at his Briar Blues YouTube Channel, Greg suggested jarring the tobacco when you first get it and then letting it age, rather than leaving it in the tin. He didn't offer any opinion regarding tins that have already aged for a while, and I stated this earlier in other threads.

For guys just starting out, which is more to the point of this thread, information that may be helpful at the beginning is important to share.

Multiple good points. There is no perfect strategy. If you use enough Mason Jars, you will lose some. If you use enough mylar, you're going to lose some. Same with tins. I strongly believe you can minimize these losses, regardless of the storage medium you use, by storing in a stable environment (temp and humidity) and through careful and minimal handling.

Exactly. Agree whole heartedly. I didn't take everything and jar it. I Mylar bagged a bunch of tins, as well as all of my Esoterica bags after Craig found pinholes in his. I have no expectation that nothing will go amiss, but am doing what I hope will minimize potential losses. I could do everything "right" and still be staring at Santa's beard when I pop a tin of Carolina Red Flake in five years. But Haddo's, like St Bruno, is one that I know corrodes the tin, so I made the decision to decant the pounds of it that I have and jar them. With Haddo's I know that if the tin is compromised and the blend goes stale, there's no reviving it. Haddo's really sucks when it goes bad.

And I don't worry about a potential "change" in how something ages because I "interrupted" the aging process. Nobody can predict how something will age, or if it will be better with age. It's all a guess. Who knows, maybe interrupting the aging process turns out to be a spectacular benefit.

As far as the square and rectangular tins are concerned, I don't think they're a great choice for long term storage, no matter what one does to mitigate potential issues, because they're releasing scent from the get go, which tells me they're not 100% sealed from the get go. The circular tins I'm not really concerned about because the seal pressure is more evenly distributed around a circular perimeter than with a rectangle.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

And I don't worry about a potential "change" in how something ages because I "interrupted" the aging process. Nobody can predict how something will age, or if it will be better with age. It's all a guess. Who knows, maybe interrupting the aging process turns out to be a spectacular benefit.

And your tastes might change. There are ample reasons to store tobacco,but the primary focus to me is preservation in smokeable condition. If it tastes better after a few or many years, and my experience is that it usually does, that is a bonus.
And s**t happens. Was it on this forum that someone posted a picture of his jars all in the floor after an earthquake?

 

[Spinkle]

Hi Gents,

I was sure that I had seen something about the St. Bruno tins rusting before, and I found the source, straight from the horse's mouth. If you skip forward in the video to about six minutes you'll see that the UK restrictions on preservatives in pipe tobaccos led to St. Bruno needing to use vinegar. This leads to rust and deteriorates the tin over time. Per Jensen explains:

Anecdotally, I've had one tin of this and the rust was all around the edge when I opened the tin. According to the video in Europe they use pouches instead to avoid this.

 

[Worknman]

In the letter he sent to Mike at his Briar Blues YouTube Channel, Greg suggested jarring the tobacco when you first get it and then letting it age, rather than leaving it in the tin.

What about the can type tins that C&D/GL Pease uses? Does Pease recommend jarring those up too? don't think rust would be a concern given they're not made of steel.

 

[Worknman]

There are two forms (maybe more) of aging...
The Theory Behind Aging Tobaccco :: General Pipe Smoking Discussion - http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/threads/the-theory-behind-aging-tobaccco.20146/

Reading over the old thread from 2013 some of the guys were talking about experimenting over a several year period with different methods. Where are they now? Its been over 6 years...?