How much will you pay for a fraized pipe?

[bigpond]

"Machine Made" vs. "Hand Made," though, CAN'T EVEN BE DEFINED except arbitrarily, and everyone draws their sand-line in a different place.

The method of production is unimportant, it's the pipes that matter and by extension the pipe carver is ultimately responsible for aesthetics and assuring quality of the finished product. A very practical perspective. It may be that the definition is itself defined by the expectation of what goes in to making a pipe by hand which differs for everyone, as you mention.

I'm sorry if I over-assumed; it was your assertion that one of the two did not actually make the pipes, but only designed them, that I was responding to with my assertion that there was some sort of implied scandal (Your words: "In at least one of the two examples the pipes are were only designed by the pipe maker.") You also said that Peter Heeschen 'unloaded a large lot of what appeared to be fraized pipes too.' (For the record, Peter's total production is down to about 100 pipes a year, from 300 year in 2005-2010). Perhaps I read too much into these statements?

I read elsewhere that this was the case with the DPS Eltangs. Nicolaj has since corrected this and mentioned that it is the Eltang Sailor Pipes that are made in another workshop, not the Anse's.

Really? High end pipe makers, excepting people with really small productions and extremely high prices (Nanna, Lars, Teddy, Gotoh etc), do things like this. A number of American pipe makers have done P&T Magazine pipes and those are equivalent in terms of numbers and consistency from pipe to pipe. It's just not that atypical.

Sure, special event pipes are common (as I'm sure we'll all see in the next few weeks), with pipe makers in this space. What is unique, as far as I'm aware, is that these pieces have been in production for nearly a year (Eltang).

 

[georged]

The title of your thread is:

How much will you pay for a FRAIZED pipe?

...and now you say:

The METHOD OF PRODUCTION is unimportant, it's the pipes that matter...

Fraizing, of course is nothing if not a method of production.
Either you are just arguing to argue, or you inadvertently demonstrated why trying to discuss this subject never has a happy ending.

 

[bigpond]

Either you are just arguing to argue, or you inadvertently demonstrated why trying to discuss this subject never has a happy ending.

Neither. I was paraphrasing your comment which suggests how a pipe is made (method) is less important than the result.

 

[georged]

Neither. I was paraphrasing your comment which suggests how a pipe is made (method) is less important than the result.

This conversation just keeps getting harder to follow.
I can't tell if you agree with what you thought I said, or if you were repeating it in order to set up your refutation of it.
In either event, I can't imagine anyone NOT thinking that the final result is all that matters. That would open the door to this sort of reasoning:
"Well, this pipe has a few rasp marks, the polyurethane finish is a bit drippy, and the stem is a half inch thick through the bite zone... but it's hand made, dammit, so is categorically better than the best fraize-shaped, molded stem Savinelli Guibileo D'Oro that ever came out of Molina!"
Um, no.
bigpond, I think this thread would have gone better if you'd simply stated your conclusion up front---"I think some of the Big Name European carvers are engaged in branding shenanigans" and then explain why---instead of asking a leading question. That is a guaranteed exercise in cat herding at the best of times, and utterly hopeless when the question itself means different things to different people.

 

[bigpond]

bigpond, I think this thread would have gone better if you'd simply stated your conclusion up front-----instead of asking a leading question.

Agreed.

 

[disinformatique]

+1 on Sykes and other members for their views. If you look at it, every pipe is machine made and every pipe is handmade. IMHO it depends if the pipes are produced bulk or are done as a commission which basically sets the difference atleast for me between machine made and handmade.
Chris

 

[billinsfl]

Years ago some people thought using a sanding disc somehow adulterated the term "hand made pipe." I suppose there is a growing trend toward "purity and integrity" (my term) in craftsmanship, sort of like the Shakers made their stuff; flawlessly finished on the invisible sides of the work, not because it will ever be seen, but because it's there...The watch industry was swept by the "manufacture" movement a number of years ago because an ever-more discerning clientele thought if they bought a fine watch from a brand, the same company should make the movement. And so, all of a sudden, to become more legitimate in the eyes of consumers, watch companies scrambled to either make their own movements, or heavily modify those from other companies enough so they could call them their own. Integrity in crafting something matters to some, and for those willing to pay the stratospheric prices some artisans are now charging for their work, it certainly makes sense, at least to me, and obviously to the original poster. Hand-made exudes exclusivity. And exclusivity is a powerful marketing tool in the area of luxury items, which high grade pipes certainly are.

 

[sablebrush52]

Do you see this as carvers cashing in?

Sure! And if people are willing to pay the amount asked for the product offered, why shouldn't they do that?

Or perhaps, carvers are suggesting machine made pipes are equal to the quality of a handmade?

The whole "handmade" VS "machine made" is just silly. Neither method is inherently superior. A pipe is a piece of wood that gets shaped. How it gets shaped is what is different. But in the end, it's a piece of wood that got shaped.
Hand carving on a factory level always involves some machining. The finishing will be by hand, and the chief efficiency there is in the area of the "cut down" stage, where the carver removes, or minimizes, the flaws that get revealed, like sand pits, as the pipe approaches its final shape. A completely automated production line doesn't have a way to take such flaws into account. So a hybrid, which is what most "hand carving" actually is, produces a much higher percentage of "firsts".
The grain potential of a block is pretty much set by the cutter, not the carver. The carver works with what he gets, unless he also acts as his own cutter.
As far as the mechanics of the pipe, which consists of the drilling and shaping of the airway and chamber, neither method is innately superior to the other. If you think about it, most "handmade" pipes have machine made interiors. And that interior is where "the business" happens.

 

[billinsfl]

As a smoking implement, there is nothing wrong with machine made pipes. And for most people that's okay. But for those folks who will spend thousands of dollars on a pipe made by Bang, Former, Knudsen, Nordh, Ivarsson and others, there is a big difference. Those people pay high $$ for perfection, crafted by hand. I buy Dunhills and have no problem knowing they are largely machine made because at that level, it's okay. But at that next price point folks are more discerning. To those who see a pipe as merely a smoking implement, that probably does seem silly.