Fun Insurance Experience Today

[proteus]

And yet doctors and hospitals have enormous risk and have insurance, trucking companies hauling gasoline have insurnace, automakers have insurance. Maybe the policy is a bond self-insured or large coffers but they have something. A simple pipe maker uninsurable? This world is unbelievable.

Its like all the adddd sodium in food and added sugars is ok but now we aren't supposed to drink more than two a week. And no smoking...strange times.

 

[Peter Peachfuzz]

Are you legitimately a small business? Do have all the proper state and federal paperwork filed. Is your location zoned for a small business. Seems like a lot of screwing around for the occasional pipe.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Why is it illegal to drive without car insurance?

For those of us who used to drive in pre-car insurance days, I can attest that getting hit used to be a crap shoot. If they didn't have insurance, you were screwed. The working poor knew that they did not have to pay, and the courts really couldn't do anything about it. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip. So, the injured party was just screwed, and out the cost of a car. They would have to buy another car while still paying for the wrecked one. It is so much better these days, believe me.

 

[fireground_piper]

Are you legitimately a small business? Do have all the proper state and federal paperwork filed. Is your location zoned for a small business. Seems like a lot of screwing around for the occasional pipe.

All the things. LLC, State, federal, bank account, insurance, etc. It actually isn't all that bad once it was all done and it also meant my paperwork was properly in place to do more stuff if I wanted (any project made of wood). Tax and Insurance issues can turn your life on its head in the blink of an eye so I don't play games with it.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

It actually isn't all that bad once it was all done and it also meant my paperwork was properly in place to do more stuff if I wanted (any project made of wood).

Therein lies your answer. Stop telling them that you make pipes, and just BE a small object woodworker.
Yeh, people let things like business licenses and registering get in the way of building a legitimate business, when it is actually very cheap and not that much thinking involved. We run two umbrella businesses with many smaller ones under those.
People who rent houses will set up a separate business for each and every house. I watched a guy set up 20 businesses for his rental company one day, and it was super easy.

Hell, I registered a winemaking business, and it was very simple. I did have to make some building changes that I wasn't aware I needed, but even that wasn't terrible.

However, I do wonder why, as you stated, this is merely a hobby for you, why worry as much about the insurance? Do you plan to start manufacturing pipes on a larger scale? Or, branch out into a more diverse line of wood objects? If so, stop telling them that you are exclusively a pipe maker. Go ahead and make a few bowls or pens, so that you aren't lying. Heck, small drying bowls for tobacco would probably sell to this crowd... especially if they are briar bowls.

 

[fireground_piper]

Therein lies your answer. Stop telling them that you make pipes, and just BE a small object woodworker.
Yeh, people let things like business licenses and registering get in the way of building a legitimate business, when it is actually very cheap and not that much thinking involved. We run two umbrella businesses with many smaller ones under those.
People who rent houses will set up a separate business for each and every house. I watched a guy set up 20 businesses for his rental company one day, and it was super easy.

Hell, I registered a winemaking business, and it was very simple. I did have to make some building changes that I wasn't aware I needed, but even that wasn't terrible.

However, I do wonder why, as you stated, this is merely a hobby for you, why worry as much about the insurance? Do you plan to start manufacturing pipes on a larger scale? Or, branch out into a more diverse line of wood objects? If so, stop telling them that you are exclusively a pipe maker. Go ahead and make a few bowls or pens, so that you aren't lying. Heck, small drying bowls for tobacco would probably sell to this crowd... especially if they are briar bowls.

I had the same thought process early on but I ultimately decided I'd be up front about it in the event down the line they did a review, realized I made pipes and terminated the policy. I figured if I just got a place that was knowingly fine with it from the start, I'd avoid the hassle that I'm now presented with, HA HA. So much for that!

Maybe I rethink it. I do intend to make other things at some point. The reason for the insurance, even at such a small scale, is I figure all it takes is for some band to fall off, be left on a table and a kid pick it up and swallow it or something. You absolutely know where that situation is going. CYA! I was paying about $40 a month, it would be crazy not to compared to the potential downside.

 

[Auxsender]

Learn to negotiate . They offer you you X you can get 1.1X you just gotta ask.

I did. They first wanted to give 20% less than the car was worth but after a week of talking and sending ads from my area for comparable cars, they gave me an additional 10%. The net result is I got hosed on 10% of the car’s value.

 

[Auxsender]

For those of us who used to drive in pre-car insurance days, I can attest that getting hit used to be a crap shoot. If they didn't have insurance, you were screwed. The working poor knew that they did not have to pay, and the courts really couldn't do anything about it. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip. So, the injured party was just screwed, and out the cost of a car. They would have to buy another car while still paying for the wrecked one. It is so much better these days, believe me.

I do believe you. I guess I should have said the current insurance model is a racket. Coverage in order to reduce liability and risk is necessary. I just don’t care for a company that denies claims or shorts payouts so they can make money.
It should be more simple.
I pay in when things are ok and the insurers pay out, every time, in full, when things aren’t.
Sadly, that’s not reality.

 

[Auxsender]

Insurance companies make their profits from investing the monies you pay them.


You can just don't carry health insurance and you won't have to answer to them.


Take that up with your state. Mostly though, injured parties need to be made whole and uninsured drivers usually do not have the monies to cover medical bills or replace your vehicle if necessary.


There's a lot of insurance fraud, faked injuries and the like. Check your provider and get a complete understanding of what is covered and what is not. You may be in for a big surprise if you are under a policy provided by your employer. If you are dissatisfied with a determination, take it to the insurance regulators in your state.

Insurance companies make their profits from investing in real estate, business and such, not in denying claims. They take the little premiums you and I pay along with all of their other clients and leverage it all to invest in big, money making operations such as shopping malls, real estate, stocks, bonds and such.

You have a simplistic view of how it all works. Your insurance broker may work for the company insuring you or, simply serve as a representative for any number of insurance companies. Your insurance policy may, in fact, belong to a reinsurance company you've never heard of. The company you purchased the policy from also wants to reduce it's risk/exposure.

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful response. I appreciate the time.

I do have a simplistic view because my only perspective is that of the consumer which is, arguably, the most important perspective.
I could educate myself by reading about it but I have better things to do, like make long posts on pipesmagazine.com

The public perception of the insurance industry is very poor.
Why is that?
Probably a variety of reasons.
I remember when Hartford threw my Dad off his health insurance for being too great a liability. I’ll never, ever forget that. And of course my car situation I already described.

I was unaware of the way the insurance industry makes most of its profit until you told me. I appreciate your insight.
They wouldn’t be able to make as much profit, which, by the way, isn’t taxed at as high a rate as wages are because it’s capital gains, without fucking me out of $1000. How many people did that same company do that to just that day?

Your last paragraph beautifully expresses the opacity I’m talking about.
Why is it so convoluted?
Why is it allowed by lawmakers to be so convoluted?

I’m sure everyone here either has been or knows someone that has been heinously fucked over by some insurance company in some way at some time.

 

[olkofri]

Aaaaand... that's why I don't have insurance of any kind. Other than the automobile, that is, because, well the institutionalised racket mandates it.

 

[Peter Peachfuzz]

Aaaaand... that's why I don't have insurance of any kind. Other than the automobile, that is, because, well the institutionalised racket mandates it.

I'm damn glad they require insurance. I also carry insurance because of the low-life's that don't. maybe you can, but I couldn't afford to replace my house if something happened. I also couldn't afford the lawyers when some ass-hat decides he busted his ass on my property and decides to sue. I sleep better knowing my cars, boat, house, etc have liability coverage of $1m for $80 dollars a year.

 

[warren]

Why is it allowed by lawmakers to be so convoluted?

The lawmakers created the environment and the publicly owned insurance companies do their damnedest to make shareholders. including many retirement plans, a return on their investment. They're charged by law to do so. Insurance companies are not, by nature, altruistic. Thank God for that! The client, you and I, are the means to those profits by purchasing a policy . The insurance companies (read: shareholders) take the risk by issuing policies. The shareholders risk their hard earned monies buying stock, trusting the various boards to use the moneys wisely. It's really that simple. The policy holder has covered or reduced some of the risks in life and the insurance company has assumed some percentage of that risk.

 

[woodsroad]

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful response. I appreciate the time.

I do have a simplistic view because my only perspective is that of the consumer which is, arguably, the most important perspective.
I could educate myself by reading about it but I have better things to do, like make long posts on pipesmagazine.com

The public perception of the insurance industry is very poor.
Why is that?
Probably a variety of reasons.
I remember when Hartford threw my Dad off his health insurance for being too great a liability. I’ll never, ever forget that. And of course my car situation I already described.

I was unaware of the way the insurance industry makes most of its profit until you told me. I appreciate your insight.
They wouldn’t be able to make as much profit, which, by the way, isn’t taxed at as high a rate as wages are because it’s capital gains, without fucking me out of $1000. How many people did that same company do that to just that day?

Your last paragraph beautifully expresses the opacity I’m talking about.
Why is it so convoluted?
Why is it allowed by lawmakers to be so convoluted?

I’m sure everyone here either has been or knows someone that has been heinously fucked over by some insurance company in some way at some time.

I'm 60, so I've had multiple forms of insurance for many years. Being self-employed, I pay my own health insurance, I carry business insurance, I have insurance on my equipment. My house is insured, as is my car. I've made a few claims over the years and have yet to have an intolerably negative outcome. Yes, a carrier dropped me after a car accident (not my fault, but it cost them a new car because they couldn't collect off the uninsured deadbeat that hit me), but I was able to easily find another insurer that turned out to cost me less. Overall, my experiences with insurance companies has been positive.

It sounds to me like you have issues with large companies making a profit. I know that you are not alone in that sentiment, there are many people that feel that big companies should be taxed out of existence. My take is different. Big companies are economy drivers. They employ people, they buy products and services, and they provide products and services essential to our economy, individual well-being, national security and...that list could go on and on. They are in business to make money, just like small businesses, only they've been more successful at it. And taxation is the most inefficient and damaging method to effect better income equity. Raise up the poor with better education and employment opportunities, rather than squashing the rich. The top 10% already pay an overwhelming amount of the taxes.

As for capital gains, if you ever manage to save enough money to buy a CD, or invest in some other manner, you'll understand and appreciate the difference between earned income and capital gains. I'm counting on capital gains to get me through life after I stop working.

 

[Auxsender]

I'm 60, so I've had multiple forms of insurance for many years. Being self-employed, I pay my own health insurance, I carry business insurance, I have insurance on my equipment. My house is insured, as is my car. I've made a few claims over the years and have yet to have an intolerably negative outcome. Yes, a carrier dropped me after a car accident (not my fault, but it cost them a new car because they couldn't collect off the uninsured deadbeat that hit me), but I was able to easily find another insurer that turned out to cost me less. Overall, my experiences with insurance companies has been positive.

It sounds to me like you have issues with large companies making a profit. I know that you are not alone in that sentiment, there are many people that feel that big companies should be taxed out of existence. My take is different. Big companies are economy drivers. They employ people, they buy products and services, and they provide products and services essential to our economy, individual well-being, national security and...that list could go on and on. They are in business to make money, just like small businesses, only they've been more successful at it. And taxation is the most inefficient and damaging method to effect better income equity. Raise up the poor with better education and employment opportunities, rather than squashing the rich. The top 10% already pay an overwhelming amount of the taxes.

As for capital gains, if you ever manage to save enough money to buy a CD, or invest in some other manner, you'll understand and appreciate the difference between earned income and capital gains. I'm counting on capital gains to get me through life after I stop working.

I absolutely get why you think I might be anti profit but I’m not.
My position is more nuanced than that. I’m all for profit. Profit drives the economy and is absolutely necessary.

It would be really great if we as a society in general and the ultra wealthy specifically, invested in education for the poor and paid actual living wages to workers but that is not at all what happens. Instead, shares of stocks are bought back. CEOs are given pay packages that are several hundred times that of their employees, and money is hidden from tax liability by way of legal but unethical corporate financial trickery.

The ultra-wealthy are not your friend. The ultra-wealthy do not “create” good paying jobs. The ultra-wealthy do not, in fact, help the poor get excellent education. In fact, the ultra-wealthy donate money to politicians that work to privatize education which pushes it even further out of reach of the poor.

There are so many points upon which you and I disagree it’s not really worth it to do a deep dive here on this wonderful pipe forum so I’ll leave the rest alone for now.

I hope you have a terrific evening and wonderful smokes this week and I’ll see ya around the forums.

 

[warren]

The ultra-wealthy are not your friend. The ultra-wealthy do not “create” good paying jobs. The ultra-wealthy do not, in fact, help the poor get excellent education. In fact, the ultra-wealthy donate money to politicians that work to privatize education which pushes it even further out of reach of the poor.

Damn! You've really got the "ultra-wealthy" nailed down. Good on you! I've never been able to get a handle on them, what with their donations to schools and non-profits. And, individuals you never read about. Until reading the above I always thought of the rich as being a mixed bag, just like the rest of the population. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[krizzose]

I did. They first wanted to give 20% less than the car was worth but after a week of talking and sending ads from my area for comparable cars, they gave me an additional 10%. The net result is I got hosed on 10% of the car’s value.

A “standard” policy might not provide full replacement value for a car, just a “market value” amount, which is going to be a sliding scale. That’s something you need to review with your agent. I recently checked my homeowners insurance dec page, and saw that my dwelling coverage limits (i.e. the total amount I could get to repair or rebuild (if necessary) my house) were lower than I would like. Those limits were set based on a standard formula that takes into account year built, square footage, etc. materials, etc. I asked for and got more coverage, with an increase in premium, of course. I have no doubt there are other levels of coverage you could get (and pay more) for auto replacement than what is in a standard auto policy. It’s all in the details.

 

[Bobby Bailey]

I don’t understand why a corporation that makes enormous profit every quarter needs to exist between me and the services I seek.
Why can’t I just go to a doctor without getting permission from a hugely profitable corporation?
Why is it illegal to drive without car insurance?
Why do health insurance companies deny claims other than their lust for profit?

In my mind, insurance is like extortion. “Give us money or something bad will happen to you”.
Bad things will happen and insurence might reduce your liability, or, they might deny your claim. That uncertainty is a risk in itself.

I’m open to an education on this topic.
Maybe you can help me understand.

You can go to any doctor without insurance, just pay what they want.
If you hit my truck, I want you to pay for fixing it.
Now, on this one, you have a point.

 

[jpmcwjr]

This has ranged too far, yet too close to topics that are "not on".