Fraudulent Comoy Blue Riband eBay listing

[woodsroad]

So, let's go back to the top and revisit the allegations made here, and on Facebook:
1. Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband.
They made the pipe. Whether it actually met all of their stated grading standards before leaving the factory or not is irrelevant. It may make the pipe even more interesting/valuable, like an upside down Jenny. The one that got away.
2. Shape 110 is a cutty, not a billiard.
110 is the correct nomenclature
3. Close inspection reveals that the nomenclature was photoshopped. None of the wood grain runs through.
No photochopping.
Now there's the insinuation/hint/suggestion/allusion/inference that counterfeiting, perhaps decades ago, might be involved, as opposed to the fraud on the part of the seller, which was the original allegation. If I was the eBay seller, I'd be pretty pissed about all of this, and might seek the advice of my lawyer.

 

[joeman]

Neil, based on the standard of straight (or bare minimum, very good flame) vertical grain, would these other very recent Blue Riband auctions also be deemed fakes?
Blue Riband 1

Blue Riband 2

 

[dmcmtk]

Joe, I would say both your examples fall well within the parameters of the type of grain one sees on Blue Ribands, That being said, there were some that had better grain than others.

 

[zulucollector]

JoeMan, while it isn't a great specimen, it does have vertical orientation. It is not a cross grain, which was used in the Tradition line. It is also a fairly late pipe, as evidenced by the shape number. These higher numbers were introduced later in the production.

 

[zulucollector]

Woodsroad:
So, let's go back to the top and revisit the allegations made here, and on Facebook:
1. Comoy never made a cross grain Blue Riband.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE PIPE? WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT COMOY MADE THE PIPE? THE EVIDENCE IS TO THE CONTRARY. ALL COMOY PUBLICATIONS, MARKETING, AND DOCUMENTATION WOULD SUGGEST THAT THEY DID NOT. IF THEY DID MAKE THE PIPE, IT CLEARLY IS NOT A BLUE RIBAND.
They made the pipe. Whether it actually met all of their stated grading standards before leaving the factory or not is irrelevant. It may make the pipe even more interesting/valuable, like an upside down Jenny. The one that got away.
THIS IS A VALID POINT. COUNTERFEIT DUNHILLS ARE WORTH MORE THAN ORIGINALS IN SOME CASES (ACCORDING TO JOHN LORING).
2. Shape 110 is a cutty, not a billiard.
110 is the correct nomenclature
THE ORIGINAL DESIGNATION OF 110 WAS A CUTTY. IF YOU WANT A PICTURE FROM THE CATALOG SHOWING THE SHAPE NUMBER, I'M HAPPY TO POST IT. IT WAS LATER REDESIGNATED.
3. Close inspection reveals that the nomenclature was photoshopped. None of the wood grain runs through.
No photochopping.
THIS MAY BE TRUE. IT MAY NOT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE PIPE, AND NEITHER HAVE YOU.
Now there's the insinuation/hint/suggestion/allusion/inference that counterfeiting, perhaps decades ago, might be involved, as opposed to the fraud on the part of the seller, which was the original allegation. If I was the eBay seller, I'd be pretty pissed about all of this, and might seek the advice of my lawyer.
I'M SURE YOU WOULD.

 

[warren]

Stating absolutes based on photos is absurd. I say this as a one-time court recognized expert on photography in the State of Alaska. Cameras/lenses can only faithfully record what they can resolve and they distort perspective. Add lighting, the subject itself, manipulation (this was before digital made manipulation easier), perspective, lens distortion, intent, etc. and a photo is only a photo, a representation of what the equipment could capture and the photographer/editor, intended to present.
Witness this thread. in which manipulation is a given to some and not to other experts in photo manipulation. It's easy to build a case in either direction, honestly and diligently. This is why for every expert in a court case there is an equally imposing and informed expert taking the other side.
My position is the original photo is an honest representation of the pipe. I take this position simply because manipulation wouldn't be economical for the seller.

 

[kcghost]

Okay, it comes down to who are you going to believe. You can go with the eBay seller with a no returns policy or Neil Roan the man who wrote the book on Blue Ribands. You guys are always giving eBay sellers more crap than anybody and now you are giving this guy a pass?? Sure Neil might be mistaken but how easily can a guy with no knowledge of pipes be fooled. One thing that really tips me in Neil's favor is the guy's reaction. I mean really who makes a "I'll tell my lawyer" over an item he knows nothing about. Yeah, I am sure he'll have lawyers lining up for miles when he tells them he wants to sue an acknowledged authority in the field over an item worth a few hundred dollars.

 

[woodsroad]

Neill, you are absolutely correct, I have not seen this pipe. And I have to concur with Warren that basing strong opinion or stating facts based on photos (and marginal photos at that) is not advisable. So I'll suspend judgement until the pipe arrives.
I'd still be pissed, if I was the seller.

 

[sablebrush52]

The pipe is going to show up on Beefeater33's doorstep and it will either have a "Blue Riband" stamp on it or it will not. If not, the "no refunds" policy is voided and eBay takes care of it.
As far as image manipulation goes, my creds are as good as anyone here and better than most all of you. As a professional matte painter, visual effects supervisor, photographer, Photoshop beta tester, and "Photoshop Guru" for Adobe back when it was still just a bulletin board, I've probably used that damned package to screw with images in more ways than any of you. Bottom line is you can't make any judgements worth spit from a digitized image. Anything can be seamlessly faked down to a pixel by pixel level if you want to take all that time to do it. So where would be the pay off in this instance?
As for the rest of this, I'm not an expert on Comoy or Blue Ribands. I am an expert on fucking up as I have a lifetime of doing that, so the possibility of an error in their process doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility, or that someone at the factory applied the wrong stamp, or stamped a lesser pipe to sell in a back alley at midnight. Charatan and Dunhill both leaked stock. They probably all did.

 

[georged]

Ah, the Internet... :roll:
Dear KevinBoard --
What's significant about this thread in my view has nothing to do with a particular situation or a particular pipe, but rather that Neill has paid us a visit, and, I imagine, if he finds the experience useful, interesting, and PLEASANT that he'll do it again.
Imagine it's 1975, this is a forum for actors, and Richard Burton dropped by. It's like that.
Nothing more should need to be said.

 

[dmcmtk]

Just out of curiosity, if you have an idea, how many people worked for Comoy's? We hear "factory pipes", and people start thinking Ford Motor Company, or General Motors, but I get the sense that these companies, Comoy's, Dunhill, Barling's, etc were relatively small.

Still looking for an answer to this question, if anybody here knows.

 

[warren]

It wouldn't be suit over a pipe. Livelihood, veracity, damages, etc as a reputation has been publicly impugned. It's way beyond the pipe as far as the seller would be concerned. It's the kind of suit many attorneys would love to present.
"zulucollector" is treading on very marshy ground by not keeping this strictly between the agents (eBay), the seller and himself. Should a "deep pocket" be found, attorneys could be pounding on the doors. Yacht maintenance, live on grounds gardeners, fuel for the corporate jet, etc require an endless parade of aggrieved persons to support.
And, unless Comoys examined all employees as diamond mining companies examine the miners at shifts end, they'd really have no idea about what was going out the door.

 

[cynicismandsugar]

[sigh] This is why we can't have nice post. Back to lurking in the shadows! [whoosh!]

 

[sablebrush52]

Ah, the Internet... :roll:
Dear KevinBoard --
What's significant about this thread in my view has nothing to do with a particular situation or a particular pipe, but rather that Neill has paid us a visit, and, I imagine, if he finds the experience useful, interesting, and PLEASANT that he'll do it again.
Imagine it's 1975, this is a forum for actors, and Richard Burton dropped by. It's like that.
Nothing more should need to be said.

Absolutely! Great to see Neill here! I already learned a lot of interesting stuff from him in this thread.

 

[woodsroad]

Jesse, I base my opinion of no chopping on the assumption that an individual who would possess your PS skill level, with 100% feedback on 712 ebay sales isn't trying to defraud someone of $115.86.

 

[beefeater33]

Lets take it easy folks.......... The pipe will arrive soon enough.

There won't be any lawyers involved, the seller didn't even bring that up. I have had several email exchanges with Jon, the seller. Its telling to go to the auction page, and read his description.......

here it is:
"Firstly i know nothing about vintage pipes other than from looking on the internet so please ask any questions and i'll get back to you as soon as i can

I bought several similar pipes at a local auction along with various other smoking related items so i'll list them as time allows

I believe this to be a Comoy's Blue Riband by the stamp on the side, also says made in London England 110 on the other side

To me it looks to be in fair used condition, with no cracks that i can find

I haven't cleaned it in any way as best done properly

Please ask any questions, happy to combine postage"
He had several pipes for sale, all with similar wording in the listings. He was trying to recoup some $$ from the box he bought at auction..... which contained a teapot that he wanted for Christmas.........

 

[warren]

It is an education. I appreciate that and am in awe of his knowledge with regard to Comoy. I sincerely hope I and some others do not run him off.
That said, I just wish he'd led off with, "In my experience..." or "Based on my knowledge ..." and left out the personal attack. I'd think he'd be on firmer ground. It's understandable and admirable that he wished to warn people off the sale based on his knowledge.
His credentials appear impeccable with regard to the pipe/Comoy. With regard to the assaulting seller's integrity based on an eBay sale and some computer correspondence? Not so much.

 

[bluegrassbrian]

I'm just here for the History lessons.
I knew there was a "christian pipe smoker" contingent, but never realized the prevalence of "photog-pipers".

 

[sablebrush52]

Jesse, I base my opinion of no chopping on the assumption that an individual who would possess your PS skill level, with 100% feedback on 712 ebay sales isn't trying to defraud someone of $115.86.

You're probably correct. I deliberately didn't weigh in with an opinion regarding PhotoShopping of the image. As I wrote, where would the payoff be in all that effort? There is none.

 

[georged]

...never realized the prevalence of "photog-pipers".

It's a common overlap. Reason unknown.
Knives, whiskey, fountain pens, beards, pipes, photography, gold bullion bricks, supermodel girlfriends, Ferrari supercars... they just seem to go together. ::